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Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people

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Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people

#101

Post by Devils_Avocado »

zldkz5 wrote: post #10
clavalle wrote: post #8

I never heard anything about incompetence in your description. Technical debt can build up for myriad reasons not related much to competence. What I would suggest is not to approach this situation as how you can wall off or otherwise attack this person but, instead as a life lesson on the importance of interpersonal relationships and politics. Politics are a fact of life. Humans are social creatures. All things being…

Yes I agree with you, the point is that being technical person doing a technical job I thought that the value that I create will talk more than the nonsense of some people. As I like to act first and share later, but there are people who talk but don't know how to act properly. I can build this skills as you said, true, but in my position now it would be impossible to get a promotion as the available spot has been ta…

I have spent my entire career in your area and can say with 1000% confidence that "the value that I create will talk more than the nonsense of some people" is something that EVERYONE assumes to be true when they start but EVERYONE realises is 100% incorrect after a few years in the industry.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people

#102

Post by ryandrake »

beat wrote: post #77
unethical_ban wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the OP is an unreliable narrator, then you shouldn't assume the guy isn't a snake, either. I have seen the case you're wary of: a technical, but poorly communicating, employee that resents the success of a well-meaning, less technical but better communicating coworker. I have seen good people like that, and I have seen snakes that pull the "we/I" as in the OP's story.

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. Generally, I don't see a lot of these "snakes" out in the real world, but I see a tremendous amount of misunderstandings, resentment, and righteous indignation. As I told the OP elsewhere, we're all the hero of our own stories, and everyone we disagree with is a villain. But ask the villain, and they think they're the hero. It's human nature. We don't want…

I’d suggest imagining what the story would look like from the other guy’s point of view, and I bet there would be no malice, no ‘mustache-twirling’ antagonism. It would be about how he always wanted to be a manager, and found a project with a strong technical partner who had no managerial aspirations. How he successfully managed upward and helped to coordinate and keep the project on track. Then at the end, after the success, he got the management role, his partner got to show his technical mastery: everyone got the result they were working toward.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people

#103

Post by beat »

existencebox wrote: post #96
beat wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. Generally, I don't see a lot of these "snakes" out in the real world, but I see a tremendous amount of misunderstandings, resentment, and righteous indignation. As I told the OP elsewhere, we're all the hero of our own stories, and everyone we disagree with is a villain. But ask the villain, and they think they're the hero. It's human nature. We don't want…

Not OP or in this chain, but I'm surprised you say this (Rarely see snakes.) I have nothing to complain about. I've done very well career wise, and have no reason to beef with any of these people. But at the same time, I've concretely seen individuals lie outright, blackmail, threaten, insult, and bully their way to success. That you say you rarely see this makes me raise an eyebrow. I've gone through the "maybe I'm…

Oh, I've seen snakes too. But I've seen people imagining that those they disagree with are snakes about 100x as much (or more). And if people don't get past this idea that everyone they're at odds with is a malicious, incompetent cheater, they can wind up being a simmering pot of bitter paranoia as they get older, unable to see the good in others.

People who let bitterness rule their lives are far, far more common than actual snakes.

Assuming my observations are correct (I may be wrong, I'm often wrong), then what is the pragmatic advice to give? "Be wary of snakes!", or "Be wary of your own human desire to be the hero of your own story and make everyone you disagree with the villain"?

To me, this is a variant on the Pragmatic Programmers' advice that "SELECT isn't broken".

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people

#104

Post by Devils_Avocado »

pitt1980 wrote: post #61
La_Beffa wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cannot agree more, this is a life lesson that should be taught in school. Especially in medium/large companies where you got rewards like promotions, bonuses and so on, then your colleagues are competitors. Pretty much like politics, the one over promising and under delivering wins over the quiet one that delivers.

exactly how much to promise is an art form over promising and under delivering isn't a sustainable model under promising too much and you won't get the chance to deliver there's a sweet spot somewhere in there, which can be sometimes tricky to find

...if everyone is over-promising & you're confident in your delivery, all you need to do is "promise" something between what is expected & over-promised in order to "under-promise".../ ,,, ... ,,, ...

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people

#105

Post by 0xdeadbeefbabe »

jondubois wrote: post #86
zldkz5 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I agree with you, the point is that being technical person doing a technical job I thought that the value that I create will talk more than the nonsense of some people. As I like to act first and share later, but there are people who talk but don't know how to act properly. I can build this skills as you said, true, but in my position now it would be impossible to get a promotion as the available spot has been ta…

The root problem is that there are too many idiots in management positions; they can't see through all the bullshit. Also, there are too many dumb investors; our entire global economy runs on dumb money. Don't waste your time trying to create value; let other people create the value and focus all your energy on capturing that value.

Ok, but ... How are we supposed to agree with your position when you waste time giving such valuable free advice?

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people

#107

Post by xor1 »

beat wrote: post #77
unethical_ban wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the OP is an unreliable narrator, then you shouldn't assume the guy isn't a snake, either. I have seen the case you're wary of: a technical, but poorly communicating, employee that resents the success of a well-meaning, less technical but better communicating coworker. I have seen good people like that, and I have seen snakes that pull the "we/I" as in the OP's story.

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. Generally, I don't see a lot of these "snakes" out in the real world, but I see a tremendous amount of misunderstandings, resentment, and righteous indignation. As I told the OP elsewhere, we're all the hero of our own stories, and everyone we disagree with is a villain. But ask the villain, and they think they're the hero. It's human nature. We don't want…

>Generally, I don't see a lot of these "snakes" out in the real world

You don't seem to understand why the term is "snake" in the first place. Of course you don't see them. They're hiding in the grass, and you're not going to notice them until you step on one. That doesn't mean the people around you aren't getting bit.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people

#108

Post by koonsolo »

clavalle wrote: post #8

I never heard anything about incompetence in your description. Technical debt can build up for myriad reasons not related much to competence. What I would suggest is not to approach this situation as how you can wall off or otherwise attack this person but, instead as a life lesson on the importance of interpersonal relationships and politics. Politics are a fact of life. Humans are social creatures. All things being…

Or short: It's not what you do, it's what people think you do.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people

#109

Post by Floegipoky »

It seems like you have a few problems: 1. Doing more than your role calls for and not getting recognition 2. Reporting to somebody who you don't trust 3. You want to keep coding/architecting. The next promotion requires pointy hair

I see 2 solutions: 1. Try to work with the company to come up with a solution. Make sure the people higher in the management chain know you're unhappy. Many companies really don't know what to do with senior/lead devs. Often the only way to advance is to stop coding, which of course is the whole reason you were valuable to the company in the first place. If that's the case where you are, consider talking to some decision makers about it. Frame it as "I like it here and want to stay, but my goals are incompatible. I'm producing more and more value for the business but there's currently no way for me to advance my career without setting aside the skills I've spent so long honing. Help me to find a way to meet my goals here." Try to talk them into creating a position for you that formalizes your role as a technical leader and gets you out of this person's reporting chain. Either they've been paying better attention than you think and they'll work with you to get you to stay, or they're clueless and have no idea what you're doing for the org. Either way, at least you tried to do something and you know where you stand. 2. Quit. 3. Deal with it (not recommended)

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with incompetent people

#110

Post by AnimalMuppet »

jondubois wrote: post #80
clavalle wrote: post #8

I never heard anything about incompetence in your description. Technical debt can build up for myriad reasons not related much to competence. What I would suggest is not to approach this situation as how you can wall off or otherwise attack this person but, instead as a life lesson on the importance of interpersonal relationships and politics. Politics are a fact of life. Humans are social creatures. All things being…

If you can't beat them, join them. My current thinking is that the only way to make the world better is by helping to make it worse; things will not improve until there is total collapse so make it happen faster.

"Let us do evil that good may result"? No thanks.

And if you understood what total collapse will mean - the incredible human cost of it - you would not propose it even as a constructive step.

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