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A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

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Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#181
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the interests as a nation and as a globe are different and sometimes antagonistic, but it pokes a massive hole in the idea that the rich are stealing and from the poor: if the rich are richer, and the poorer richer, the ones complaining are the ones in the middle. It would change the rhetoric from "poor vs rich" to "middle vs rich and poor".

Why aren't they? They're not doing it from altruistic reasons, they've just found people willing to work for less pay. Surely a king upon conquering even worse off subjects, which enables him to maintain and expand his wealthy lifestyle cheaper, can still be charged as an exploiter?

> Why aren't they? They're not doing it from altruistic reasons, they've just found people willing to work for less pay.

The middle class is not asking for progressive taxation of the rich for altruistic reasons either: they want the benefit of that taxation: access to housing, health, government jobs, college education, etc.

Its a much more morally and factually confusing narrative to say that the middle 50% wants to take fro mthe top 25% and bottom 25%, than the top 50% is taking from the bottom 50%. Particularly because in the utilitarian view, taking from the middle and giving to the bottom is still redistribution of wealth the 'right direction'.

The case in the united states is a lot simpler than people think tho. I believe the single most important reversal of real wages stagnation is to fix healthcare. If insurance cost half of what it costs today (or even less), then real wages would get a massive bump, specially at the lower echelons, where insurance costs disproportionately more than at the top.

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gotta answer that last sentence. Free market advocates are the exact opposite of disconnected with the dirty world: they advocate for allowing the dirtyness of reality sort itself out, without a neat central order. The most significant advocate for free markets, Milton Friedman, literally wrote the book on the application of Positive Economics: seeing things how they really are, use empiric data, make falsifiable pre…

Well, if you start with the idea that markets exist in the void, you are certainly avoiding the dirty world. For instance: assuming that property rights exist outside a political framework or power structures.

They don't exist in "the void". Property rights are fundamental to the free market ideology, as well as courts, police and military. It's the foundations of liberalism, with Locke, Adam Smith, etc.

I reiterate that free market ideology is positive, while government intervention ideology is more normative: it says how things should be and tries to make it so. The best case of this has been obviously Communism and Fascism: they said this is best, and organized top to bottom how things should be, and ignored any evidence of the contrary.

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#183
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There hasn't been large-scale political violence in China since the end of the Cultural Revolution in 1976. That ten-year period killed 5-10 million on the high end. Which is, of course, quite bad, but in comparison to the 50-80M that died in ostensibly capitalist Europe during WWII, it doesn't seem that outsized. > So for burden of proof, I think you need to argue that an alternative model would have resulted in l…

Famines were not exactly unusual in backwards agrarian nations recovering from 50 years of nonstop civil war and foreign occupation. European nations, before modernization, had famine problems, even without war. As Hans Rosling pointed out, famine killed much of the Swedish population in the late 19th century. From 1845-1850, Ireland lost a quarter of its population to famine and emigration to escape famine - 10-15%…

I certainly didn't mean to imply that Communism was the cause of the famine.

I meant to instead do what you seem to be doing - pointing out a bit of economic turmoil that lead to great loss of life. Mine just happened to be accounting for on the side of the ledger labeled "Communism".

Does it make the Great Famine any less an economic blow to Communist China that there are also historical examples of large famines in capitalist societies?

I'm not sure it does.

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#184
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is self-evident is that you're just trolling, and have no interest in actual discourse. QED.

Do you not understand the issue? I'm not trolling. You become wealthy by allocating capital efficiently. This is econ 101. How hard is this to understand?

I already responded. There are many ways to become wealthy. "Allocating capital efficiently" is just one of them. You keep claiming it is the most common way, and the rest, such as inheriting money, are "exceptions". I asked you to provide a citation. You refused, and provided a shallow response instead, saying it is "self-evident". Hence, you have no interest in actual discourse.

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#185
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why aren't they? They're not doing it from altruistic reasons, they've just found people willing to work for less pay. Surely a king upon conquering even worse off subjects, which enables him to maintain and expand his wealthy lifestyle cheaper, can still be charged as an exploiter?

> Why aren't they? They're not doing it from altruistic reasons, they've just found people willing to work for less pay. The middle class is not asking for progressive taxation of the rich for altruistic reasons either: they want the benefit of that taxation: access to housing, health, government jobs, college education, etc. Its a much more morally and factually confusing narrative to say that the middle 50% wants t…

> The middle class is not asking for progressive taxation of the rich for altruistic reasons either: they want the benefit of that taxation: access to housing, health, government jobs, college education, etc.

This needs a change of perspective. The workers are the ones that needs to sell their labour to the rich. It's their work that's the base of the rich's gains. The rich are unable to get rich without them. The benefits funded by taxes are capitalist societies fundamental palliative to prevent a Bastille day - especially when livable wages are seemingly also up for discussion. It's interesting to see how they're undermining themselves.

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#186
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was sold to the middle class as "Trickle down economics". Basically, if you make the rich richer, your pie gets bigger too. Sadly, people bought that line.

I’m not sure why you are getting downvotes, but that was precisely the line that was used. The economics and finance professors I took classes with had a good laugh at that idea.

Yea also not sure why this is being downvoted. That was exactly the narrative at the time.

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#187
post #89

I posted my take on this recently on Facebook. (And I recently gave a TedX talk on the same concept entitled "Money: The Greatest Story Ever Told" [1]) Here is an image of the entire world's Money supply [2]. In my eyes, the majority shift occurred due to two things: 1) Ending the gold standard peg 2) Creation of the derivative market 1 --- Ending the Gold Standard Peg In 1971, Nixon severed the connection between Go…

Glad to see someone mention the "temporary" cessation of the dollar's convertibility to gold. From my perspective that would mark the most important event for this topic but it is hardly discussed.

I never understand why people see these actions all happening simultaneously -- a invention of infinite money will of course go to the top, and create inequality between the rich and poor -- because that's how compound interest works.

But for some reason, that doesn't seem to even register on people's radar.

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#188
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you not understand the issue? I'm not trolling. You become wealthy by allocating capital efficiently. This is econ 101. How hard is this to understand?

I already responded. There are many ways to become wealthy. "Allocating capital efficiently" is just one of them. You keep claiming it is the most common way, and the rest, such as inheriting money, are "exceptions". I asked you to provide a citation. You refused, and provided a shallow response instead, saying it is "self-evident". Hence, you have no interest in actual discourse.

It is irrelevant what the percentage is. If you are good at allocating capital efficiently, you will become wealthy. Therefore, the wealthy has positive skew to their capital allocating ability.

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#189
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The theme I'm replying to is 'Regan's stated policy objectives were implemented in the 70s and were probable causes of rising income inequality'. Maybe policy settings were twiddled, but the sudden stoppage of growth is probably linked to resource growth tapering off. In a counterfactual scenario where some other set of economic policies were in place, you'd probably have seen income growth trail off regardless. The…

But go deeper than even that and determine what is the crux of the unfairness. How are the rich securing a larger percentage of the growth unfairly? If everyone is getting richer, but the rich are doing it faster, what are they doing to capture that excess? Isn't the answer "investing in the economy?"

> Isn't the answer "investing in the economy?"

Or rent seeking through concrete asset accumulation during the bust phase of boom-bust cycles.

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#190
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why aren't they? They're not doing it from altruistic reasons, they've just found people willing to work for less pay. The middle class is not asking for progressive taxation of the rich for altruistic reasons either: they want the benefit of that taxation: access to housing, health, government jobs, college education, etc. Its a much more morally and factually confusing narrative to say that the middle 50% wants t…

> The middle class is not asking for progressive taxation of the rich for altruistic reasons either: they want the benefit of that taxation: access to housing, health, government jobs, college education, etc. This needs a change of perspective. The workers are the ones that needs to sell their labour to the rich. It's their work that's the base of the rich's gains. The rich are unable to get rich without them. The be…

But the poor are getting richer, thats working perfectly well. Its just the middle class isnt benefitting of it as much as the richest.
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