Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Karl Friston: a neuroscientist who might hold the key to true AI

wired.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 111 posts

Re: Karl Friston: a neuroscientist who might hold the key to true AI

#11

Post by varjag »

mafribe wrote: post #6

Clickbait article. It is noteworthy that Friston has, as of November 2018, neither (1) formalised free energy minimisation (FIM) with sufficient precision that it goes beyond a vague research heuristic, that can (and is) adapted in ad-hoc ways; nor (2) come up with sufficient empirical evidence for his claim that FIM is how human or animal brains works -- despite the recent revolution in our ability to measure live n…

Agreed. No technical detail means quackery, something the field always had in abundance.

Re: Karl Friston: a neuroscientist who might hold the key to true AI

#13

Post by toxik »

axilmar wrote: post #12

Well, here is what I believe brains do: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9022206 It makes total sense for the brain's job to be minimizing surprise, because minimizing surprise is the best and most basic strategy for survival.

With all due respect, one sentence explaining how you think the mind works isn't really worth much. It doesn't amount to much more than "the brain tries to explain reality." Yes, ok, but how do you translate that into some algorithm? How does it relate to gradient descent methods on neural networks?

Re: Karl Friston: a neuroscientist who might hold the key to true AI

#14

Post by temperfidelis2x »

kken wrote: post #4

The article is too long for the idea it tries to convey. I like to read to broaden my mind, not for readings sake.

The article tells a story; it's not meant for people trying to grasp technical details. Furthermore, it can be argued that reading (well-written texts like this) for readings sake also broadens your mind.

Re: Karl Friston: a neuroscientist who might hold the key to true AI

#15

Post by Tenoke »

snrji wrote: post #10

By no means will I be ever able to grasp Friston's theory, but the free energy minimisation vaguely reminds me of Curiosity-driven reinforcement learning. Can anyone with more understanding than me confirm or deny this apparent resemblance?

That has been my go-to comparison for a while as well, and it sounds like what they refer to in this article when they talk about using active inference-based AI vs classical reinforcement learning.

Re: Karl Friston: a neuroscientist who might hold the key to true AI

#16

Post by platz »

ColinWright wrote: post #2

So many submissions, as yet zero comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18487584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18463384 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18457194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18449205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18446035 Does no one have something interesting to say or add?

Take for example this paragraph:

> “This is absolutely novel in history,” Ramstead told me as we sat on a bench in Queen Square, surrounded by patients and staff from the surrounding hospitals. Before Friston came along, “We were kind of condemned to forever wander in this multidisciplinary space without a common currency,” he continued. “The free energy principle gives you that currency.”

This is bloviation and crankery. I am not the target audience for this kind of reputation-building.

Re: Karl Friston: a neuroscientist who might hold the key to true AI

#17

Post by Tenoke »

mafribe wrote: post #6

Clickbait article. It is noteworthy that Friston has, as of November 2018, neither (1) formalised free energy minimisation (FIM) with sufficient precision that it goes beyond a vague research heuristic, that can (and is) adapted in ad-hoc ways; nor (2) come up with sufficient empirical evidence for his claim that FIM is how human or animal brains works -- despite the recent revolution in our ability to measure live n…

The title is definitely clickbait-ey but the article reads like a fairly honest (maybe too positive) profile of Friston.

For what is worth, I agree that FIM not being formalised is a point against it, but I wouldn't say there's anything ad-hoc about how it applies when fitting it to e.g. schizophrenia.

For what is worth, this quote sums up how I look at it[1]:

>Friston mentions many times that free energy is “almost tautological”, and one of the neuroscientists I talked to who claimed to half-understand it said it should be viewed more as an elegant way of looking at things than as a scientific theory per se.

1. http://slatestarcodex.com/2018/03/04/god-help-us-lets-try-to...

Re: Karl Friston: a neuroscientist who might hold the key to true AI

#18

Post by rusticpenn »

toxik wrote: post #13
axilmar wrote: post #12

Well, here is what I believe brains do: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9022206 It makes total sense for the brain's job to be minimizing surprise, because minimizing surprise is the best and most basic strategy for survival.

With all due respect, one sentence explaining how you think the mind works isn't really worth much. It doesn't amount to much more than "the brain tries to explain reality." Yes, ok, but how do you translate that into some algorithm? How does it relate to gradient descent methods on neural networks?

Surprise can be defined as an unexpected difference or anomaly. One Class Classification or anomaly detection can be a very good trainer for a generic AI.

Re: Karl Friston: a neuroscientist who might hold the key to true AI

#19

Post by sydd »

jamii wrote: post #7

Notes from the last time I tried to understand this - https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/wpZJvgQ4HvJE2bysy/god-help-u...

Thanks, it was a great read!

From what I get this whole thing is more like an abstract ruleset describing how decision making in the brain works, rather than a brain model. Or am I wrong, is there anyone who built a network model based on this theory?

Re: Karl Friston: a neuroscientist who might hold the key to true AI

#20

Post by [deleted] »

platz wrote: post #16
ColinWright wrote: post #2

So many submissions, as yet zero comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18487584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18463384 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18457194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18449205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18446035 Does no one have something interesting to say or add?

Take for example this paragraph: > “This is absolutely novel in history,” Ramstead told me as we sat on a bench in Queen Square, surrounded by patients and staff from the surrounding hospitals. Before Friston came along, “We were kind of condemned to forever wander in this multidisciplinary space without a common currency,” he continued. “The free energy principle gives you that currency.” This is bloviation and cran…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN