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A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

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Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#91
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Karl Marx. And I see the point the parent is making, although that's probably more of an issue in the USA than in Europe for instance. And I do agree that it's a shame because the writings of Marx are extremely interesting and deserve to be studied and discussed even if you don't believe in socialism and communism, it's really about economy in general first and foremost. Dismissing this important ground-breaking work…

But Karl Marx was wrong, really wrong. About almost everything he modeled. Labor theory value did not stand academic or practical scrutiny. The reserve army idea is frankly, plain off the mark. He contributed a great challenge to economics with his ideas, having to work towards rebuttal and debunking of his simple, yet appealing models.

>Labor theory value did not stand academic or practical scrutiny.

It seems to be standing academic scrutiny today, at least, it is debated to be. Kliman's[0] Temporal Single System Interpretation of Marx, upheld by Alan Freeman, David Laibman and Guglielmo Carchedi is one example which also attempts to solve for the transformation problem. On the other hand, Paul Cockshott has written on the empirical validity from the opposite pole[4] (note, one which Kliman rejects). Anwar Shaikh takes up what (I believe to be, my memory is rusty) a neo-Ricardian approach to the empirical strength of Marx's theory of value[8]. With regard to Marx's falling rate of profit, Okishio's Fundamental Marxian Theorem is currently upheld by Dong-Min Rieu (in several interpretations)[10]. Recent work has also been done on the empirical validity of the TRPF using actual econometric data[9]. Marx's theory of exploitation is currently upheld by John Roemer, Roberto Veneziani and Naoki Yoshihara[1]. Marx's "third thing" proof is currently upheld by James Furner[2]. The interpretation of the labour theory of value in the causal-explanatory mode is discussed since Steven Fleetwood[3]. The Sraffian criticism of Marx is also very much discussed[5][6][7]. There is also, of course, the Neue Marx-Lektur school which takes the sociological and cultural approach to the theory of value, the relatively new idea of the "value theory of labour", and the philosophical reading of capital such that price and value are different levels of abstraction and thus irreconcilable.

My point is that to say Marx was "wrong, really wrong" does not do justice to the fact that he was wrong on some counts and right on other counts, and your dismissal is much too heavy handed to dismiss much of the work and debate done in political economy.

[0] "Two Concepts of Value, Two Rates of Profit, Two Laws of Motion," Research in Political Economy 18, 243–67

[1] http://www.ier.hit-u.ac.jp/~yosihara/Reexamination_of_the_Ma...

[2] Furner, James (2004) 'Marx's critique of Samuel Bailey', Historical Materialism 12(2)

[3] Fleetwood, S. (2001) 'What kind of theory is Marx's labour theory of value? A critical realist inquiry', Capital & Class 73

[4] http://users.wfu.edu/cottrell/eea97.pdf

[5] Freeman, Alan, (2002), Marx After Marx After Sraffa, MPRA Paper, University Library of Munich, Germany.

[6] http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/ecn265/value.pdf

[7] Bowles, S., and Gintis, H. (1981): “Structure and ractice in the Labor Theory of Value,” Review of Radical Political Economics 12,pp.1-26.

[8] "The Empirical Strength of the Labor Theory of Value" in Conference Proceedings of Marxian Economics: A Centenary Appraisal, Riccardo Bellofiore (ed.), Macmillan, London.

[9] Basu, Deepankar and Manolakos, Panayiotis T., "Is There a Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall? Econometric Evidence for the U.S. Economy, 1948-2007" (2010). Economics Department Working Paper Series. 99.

[10] Rieu, D.-M. (2009). Interpretations of Marxian Value Theory in Terms of the Fundamental Marxian Theorem. Review of Radical Political Economics, 41(2), 216–226.

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still amazed at how effectively we have collectively shunned thought along these lines by turning the founding father of the relevant branch of economical philosophy into a real life he-who-shall-not-be-named. Anyone who wants to talk about these problems either has to either re-invent the wheel or mention the unmentionable name and doom themselves to immediate dismissal as a kook.

In fairness, attempts have been made to translate the revolution part of his ideas into functional policy at least twice now and both events have included massive violence (and one has followed up that massive violence with a general mismanagement of public resources to the detriment of the "unconnected," not unlike the pain inflicted upon them by the previous ruling class). At this point, the burden of proof is on t…

I've done XP. It was awesome.

As for the two attempts to implement Marxism (assuming you're speaking of Russia and China here)... in Russia, you can't separate it from Leninism and Stalinism. Is Marxism the problem, or the authoritarian government?

China is more interesting. China is still ostensibly a Marxist nation, right? Per World Bank data I just looked up, China's per capita GDP (in constant US dollars) was lowest in 1962, at $71.91. That's per year. In 2017, it's $8826.99. Constant dollars, mind you. That's 123 times more.

I have a hard time calling that a failure of any sort.

There hasn't been large-scale political violence in China since the end of the Cultural Revolution in 1976. That ten-year period killed 5-10 million on the high end. Which is, of course, quite bad, but in comparison to the 50-80M that died in ostensibly capitalist Europe during WWII, it doesn't seem that outsized.

So for burden of proof, I think you need to argue that an alternative model would have resulted in less political violence and more economic prosperity than that for China. Good luck.

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#93

So looks like the 80s is when things start going south (increased income inequality) so I looked up who was president during that time, then looked at their wiki page to see their economic policy and found this gem of a quote: "Soon after taking office, Reagan began implementing sweeping new political and economic initiatives. His supply-side economic policies, dubbed "Reaganomics", advocated tax rate reduction to sp…

The irony is the right holds Reagan as a shining example of fiscal conservatism. However, Reagan ultimately tripled the debt while in office. The right loved saying Obama spent more than all other presidents before him combined (which he did, which Bush did...but Reagan the model of fiscal conservatism spent 2x as all presidents who served before him).

Seems Trump is on the way to top that. That's one thing I never get about modern Republicans. When in opposition they throw a fit about deficits but as soon as they have power they forget these concerns but drive deficits up a lot. Reagan did it, Bush did it and now Trump is doing it too.

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trickle down economics is a pejorative term from the 30's. As a proposition it is as naive as trickle-up, which is what the other spectrum usually sells. ('if you give poor people more resources, its good for everyone') Economics, as the expression of human beings exchanging with each other, accepts neither.

>>As a proposition it is as naive as trickle-up, which is what the other spectrum usually sells. ('if you give poor people more resources, its good for everyone') Incorrect. It has been well-documented that when people have more disposable income, their spending increases. This increase in economic activity grows the economy.

> Incorrect. It has been well-documented that when people have more disposable income, their spending increases. This increase in economic activity grows the economy.

It has been well documented that when you give people who have proven themselves capable of efficiently allocating capital (i.e. the rich) more capital, they continue to allocate it to its best and most productive use for society.

Everyone's got a narrative, and they're both right. To an extent.

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#95

So looks like the 80s is when things start going south (increased income inequality) so I looked up who was president during that time, then looked at their wiki page to see their economic policy and found this gem of a quote: "Soon after taking office, Reagan began implementing sweeping new political and economic initiatives. His supply-side economic policies, dubbed "Reaganomics", advocated tax rate reduction to sp…

It was sold to the middle class as "Trickle down economics". Basically, if you make the rich richer, your pie gets bigger too. Sadly, people bought that line.

> It was sold to the middle class as "Trickle down economics".

No, it was sold as “supply-side economics”, “Trickle-down economics” was a hostile characterization (as was Geore H. W. Bush’s “Voodoo economics” characterization.)

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#96
post #56
post #42

This is a very US - centric view. With globalization I think a different picture emerges. Increasing global trade has hurt US (and Other Western) working classes with de-industrialization, where many more people foreign countries have been lifted out of poverty.

The US has, on a global scale, long had higher standards of living than a large remainder of the world so balancing US workers with foreign workers to elevate the standard of living in third world countries isn't a bad thing. The issue is more that while this process was happening a small segment of the US population has managed to sequester a nearly incomprehensible portion of that wealth for no good reason.

> long had higher standards of living than a large remainder of the world

Not really 200 years ago most Americans were scratching a living in a new world fighting off the natives and importing slaves.

>The issue is more that while this process was happening a small segment of the US population has managed to sequester a nearly incomprehensible portion of that wealth for no good reason.

Agreed its a big change from the 60s and 70s.

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#97
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Karl Marx. And I see the point the parent is making, although that's probably more of an issue in the USA than in Europe for instance. And I do agree that it's a shame because the writings of Marx are extremely interesting and deserve to be studied and discussed even if you don't believe in socialism and communism, it's really about economy in general first and foremost. Dismissing this important ground-breaking work…

In a past life I went to film school at a very very left-leaning university and distinctly remember learning about Lukács, Gramsci and Althusser as a "Cultural Marxist" wave that was all about correcting the excessive emphasis on economics of previous orthodox marxism. So there -- not only the phrase makes perfect sense if you do read Gramsci like I have, it's been uttered by Marxist professors somewhere in the world…

The Frankfurt School, which coined the term "cultural Marxism", were German Marxists who survived WWI, saw the revolution fail in Germany and turn to Leninist/Stalinist horror in Russia, and tried to understand what went wrong. They were seeking a route to revolution that was not wracked with violence and dictatorship. Fascinating stuff, actually.

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#98

So looks like the 80s is when things start going south (increased income inequality) so I looked up who was president during that time, then looked at their wiki page to see their economic policy and found this gem of a quote: "Soon after taking office, Reagan began implementing sweeping new political and economic initiatives. His supply-side economic policies, dubbed "Reaganomics", advocated tax rate reduction to sp…

As an engineer and computational scientist, drawing conclusions from correlations like this is absurd. Maybe Reagan was good for income inequality or maybe he was bad for it. Did you control for the other variables before drawing your conclusions? What about: * The governments' legislation and economic policies in countries like the USSR, China, etc. in the 80s * Changing technology especially communication technolog…

“As an engineer and computational scientist, drawing conclusions from correlations like this is absurd.”

Tell that to Ruby developers... duck typing (if it quacks like a duck and walks like one, it’s definitely a duck)

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#99

So looks like the 80s is when things start going south (increased income inequality) so I looked up who was president during that time, then looked at their wiki page to see their economic policy and found this gem of a quote: "Soon after taking office, Reagan began implementing sweeping new political and economic initiatives. His supply-side economic policies, dubbed "Reaganomics", advocated tax rate reduction to sp…

This is something that economists have debated over for decades since. Stiglitz specifically attacks Reagan on that front. Milton Friedman defends it. Reagan was the last president to make a deep impact change in how economics and politics relate. He was unique in the way he self-deprecated government, something that is truly rare for presidents. He would actively advocate the government was the problem not the solut…

I’m an 80’s kid, and don’t remember the specific rhetoric, but my question has always been: if you dont believe in an organization, why join it and try to ruin it for everyone? Why be president if you think government is bad?

I mean, I think the KKK is bad and should go away, but I’m not going to go try to be it’s leader.

Re: A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

#100

So looks like the 80s is when things start going south (increased income inequality) so I looked up who was president during that time, then looked at their wiki page to see their economic policy and found this gem of a quote: "Soon after taking office, Reagan began implementing sweeping new political and economic initiatives. His supply-side economic policies, dubbed "Reaganomics", advocated tax rate reduction to sp…

As an engineer and computational scientist, drawing conclusions from correlations like this is absurd. Maybe Reagan was good for income inequality or maybe he was bad for it. Did you control for the other variables before drawing your conclusions? What about: * The governments' legislation and economic policies in countries like the USSR, China, etc. in the 80s * Changing technology especially communication technolog…

Oh, and while throwing all sorts of alternative world scenarios in the wild hope one might make a reasonable argument that Neoliberal policies aren’t the driver of inequality...

you forgot Occam’s Razor.

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