Live data from Hacker News

Why affordable housing is scarce in progressive cities

curbed.com

81–90 of 107 posts

Re: Why affordable housing is scarce in progressive cities

#81
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everywhere I know of rent control only applies to significantly older buildings. Which means that new buildings can charge much higher prices, which means that rent control actually encourages new buildings. New buildings are what become older buildings. If that causes them to become less valuable, they become less valuable immediately because the future loss gets priced in, making them less valuable to construct.…

In all the major cities I know of (and this includes san francisco and los angeles), if there is rent control it is set for buildings older than a fixed date (usually somewhere about 1979). So no, newer buildings will not become covered by rent control unless the laws are drastically changed. Furthermore, in California the Ellis act allows landlords to mass evict rent controlled tenants in order to demolish a buildin…

> Furthermore, in California the Ellis act allows landlords to mass evict rent controlled tenants in order to demolish a building for new construction, so your second point is not valid either.

That would still apparently prevent the building from being subdivided into smaller units or otherwise reconfigured/improved for higher density.

And your point seems to be not that rent control isn't a problem but rather that some places are already phasing it out -- which is good, but presents no aid to the people who continue to propose expanding it or retaining it in the areas it isn't already on its way out.

Re: Why affordable housing is scarce in progressive cities

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the greater context here misses the trauma behind being forced to move out of a home. Being separated from your social network, familiar surroundings, into a new and unknown environment can be highly traumatizing to the people who move and the community which loses its members. Children have their educations interrupted, elders lose a family of support, adults need to forge new friendships in a time where we…

Does it have to be a trauma? After all, most people don't live with their parents forever. Finding your own place is a rite of passage. Most college students graduate and move somewhere else. One way of preventing trauma would be to make sure people don't have to move. Another way would be to make moving something to look forward to, rather than a trauma.

> Another way would be to make moving something to look forward to, rather than a trauma.

This assumes your own lived experience is prescriptively good for everyone else. There's more than one way to the same goal.

Let's put the situation another way. At a certain socioeconomic strata, which describes most of HN's readership, networking is loosely coupled to one's geographic nexus. Walk the gradient beyond that strata with decreasing incomes, and networking increasingly and greatly emphasizes a locus.

Blithely dismissing these different networking modalities devastates the value built up by the networks but not registered in the official econometrics. The neighbors that trade shade tree mechanic automotive fixes for a quarter-fridge-large pile of tamales. The elderly couple who get groceries delivered in trade for watching out for suspicious activity while a young family is away at pre-K and work. The general contracting single dad who builds a porch in exchange for math and SAT tutoring for his daughter. The BBQ block parties done on the cheap instead of at a restaurant or a rented meeting space, where more of these trades are discovered and initiated, often not as quid pro quo trades but just neighbor helping neighbor when an opportunity to help arises.

These arrangements take decades to establish into thriving networks because human trust is either hugely expensive to enforce, or hugely time-consuming to ascertain. These communities are capital starved (especially so if you want to enforce trust via attorneys), so they trade time and evolved cooperative relationships for capital. No amount of "gig economy" unicorn'ism will pencil out to less capital outlay by these residents than a richly diverse network with deeply-established trust protocols.

Break up these networks and you impoverish those forced to move away in a very real economic sense, even though it isn't measured. It just comes out in stories of misery that are then blamed upon poor people too lazy to "look forward to" their change.

Re: Why affordable housing is scarce in progressive cities

#84

If it is bad policy, then can someone help explain why unaffordable housing is currently a world-wide issue?

> If it is bad policy, then can someone help explain why unaffordable housing is currently a world-wide issue?

1) Because the incentives for enacting the bad policies are widespread, so the bad policies are widespread, so the problem is widespread.

2) It isn't. See cities like Houston and Tokyo which have lower housing costs than San Francisco or NYC.

Re: Why affordable housing is scarce in progressive cities

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it have to be a trauma? After all, most people don't live with their parents forever. Finding your own place is a rite of passage. Most college students graduate and move somewhere else. One way of preventing trauma would be to make sure people don't have to move. Another way would be to make moving something to look forward to, rather than a trauma.

> Another way would be to make moving something to look forward to, rather than a trauma. This assumes your own lived experience is prescriptively good for everyone else. There's more than one way to the same goal. Let's put the situation another way. At a certain socioeconomic strata, which describes most of HN's readership, networking is loosely coupled to one's geographic nexus. Walk the gradient beyond that strat…

Social networks are certainly important and I don't mean to dismiss anything. Instead I'm suggesting that there may be more than one way to deal with a problem, but this is rarely discussed. What can be done to help people make connections after a move?

Re: Why affordable housing is scarce in progressive cities

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High home values and inclusive housing policies are directly opposed. They exclude anyone who can't afford high housing prices.

Yet there is public housing in Chelsea NYC. We can argue about how to do ‘inclusive housing’ but the idea that it immediately precludes high home prices doesn’t hold up to basic inspection.

> Yet there is public housing in Chelsea NYC.

This is a classic political maneuver. Build two units out of a thousand with regulated prices, then declare victory because you can point to one person paying an affordable price, even though it's being sold below market at restricted volumes and isn't available to everyone.

If the same units were available at that price but in unrestricted quantity to every member of the public, the high prices of competing housing would fall.

Re: Why affordable housing is scarce in progressive cities

#88
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Rent control" is the idea that people already living in a city have more rights to live there than people who are not. While it may sound socially just it is also one of most un-progressive (conservative) things you can imagine. It literally conserves the population of a given district.

And market rents are the idea that people with more money then you have the right to live in your apartment then you do. Neither is fair, but both are unfair in different ways. Your preference for market distribution, as opposed to lottery distribution (which is what rent control essentially is) is largely an ideological one.

The phrase “your apartment” strikes me as the heart of the issue. If you’re renting then it’s not really yours. It’s the landlord’s, and they just let you use it temporarily.

And yet that is the phrase we use, because people do feel a sense of ownership about their living space even when legally they have no ownership. A lot of these policies come down to how much we want to back that feeling up with legal rights.

Re: Why affordable housing is scarce in progressive cities

#89
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why aren't there developers that are willing to make 17% margins instead of 20% margins? You know what I'm saying. Related Group has always been happy to and does to this day build luxury units that get scooped up by elite Venezuelans and Russians. Who will build non-luxury units? The owners will claim they're luxury for the next 40 years, so there's no real trickle down effect.

> Why aren't there developers that are willing to make 17% margins instead of 20% margins? Because the margins in a different city are 19%, or some entirely different class of investment now has better risk-adjusted returns so the funding falls through.

Don't developers usually only operate in specific regions where they have experience and contacts and have established relations with suppliers and contractors?

Can they easily enough move between cities that they could leave a 17% city to chase 19% margins?

Re: Why affordable housing is scarce in progressive cities

#90
post #9

A philosophical question: is it ever okay for someone to have to move away to find affordable housing? Or do we say that once someone becomes resident of a community, they should be able to live there forever? (This isn't just renting; there are similar issues with home owners and property tax increases.)

I think the greater context here misses the trauma behind being forced to move out of a home. Being separated from your social network, familiar surroundings, into a new and unknown environment can be highly traumatizing to the people who move and the community which loses its members. Children have their educations interrupted, elders lose a family of support, adults need to forge new friendships in a time where we…

"Trauma" - moving?

Your ancestors could handle a trip across the country (or an ocean) where half the people died along the way, but people can't handle moving out of some shitty midwestern town entirely supported by the coal plant that's scheduled to shut down to pursue a job because the local Church and T-ball league they're involved with is there?

I'm increasingly not sure the boom in population has been worth it for humanity if these are the kinds of people we're dragging along.

Post reply on HN