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The New York Hustle of Amazon’s Second Headquarters

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Re: The New York Hustle of Amazon’s Second Headquarters

#31

Post by bilbo0s »

booleandilemma wrote: post #25
bradleyjg wrote: post #11

For the nation as a whole it's a bad deal, in a prisoner's dilemma if everyone cooperates the payoff matrix is globally optimal. But for New York City it's a good deal, and those claiming otherwise refuse to look at the math and instead want to go with how the deal makes them feel. $150,000 x 25,000 = $3.75B/year. At NYS + NYC effective tax rate of around 9.25% at that income level that's around 350MM in income tax a…

And yet I just heard that the MTA is raising prices again this year. How many Fortune 100 companies need to move here before we get a working subway system?

To be fair, you do have a working subway system. If you didn't, no one would care that they raised prices.

You guys have the best subway system in the US if we're being honest here. That's part of the reason why you get things like Amazon's HQ2 instead of anyone else.

Re: The New York Hustle of Amazon’s Second Headquarters

#32

Post by matchagaucho »

clairity wrote: post #24
bradleyjg wrote: post #11

For the nation as a whole it's a bad deal, in a prisoner's dilemma if everyone cooperates the payoff matrix is globally optimal. But for New York City it's a good deal, and those claiming otherwise refuse to look at the math and instead want to go with how the deal makes them feel. $150,000 x 25,000 = $3.75B/year. At NYS + NYC effective tax rate of around 9.25% at that income level that's around 350MM in income tax a…

you make it sound like those numbers are completely comprehensive and without agenda, and that these subsidies are an unmitigated good. but they completely ignore jobs lost, companies shuttered, environmental impacts, and opportunity costs. you're looking only at inflows and ignoring outflows. no systems dynamicist would take such an analysis seriously. systems have boundaries (by definition), and you must look at al…

"you ignore the fact that amazon probably would have set up shop in nyc for far fewer, and probably even zero, dollars in subsidies"

Not a chance. Property tax incentives and subsidies are offered in all 50 U.S. states to encourage employer relocation. There is rampant competition.

Re: The New York Hustle of Amazon’s Second Headquarters

#33

Post by jorblumesea »

Amazon was just looking to expand satellite offices, and used the HQ contest as a way to get free business info as to where to expand next. They were also looking for generous tax breaks to allow them to operate leaner in high COL high talent areas.

My guess is NY and NOVA areas were already being seriously considered and someone had the bright idea to turn it into a race to the bottom. Remember, as way back as 2016, Bezos was buying property in the DC area.

Re: The New York Hustle of Amazon’s Second Headquarters

#34

Post by Spooky23 »

clairity wrote: post #24
bradleyjg wrote: post #11

For the nation as a whole it's a bad deal, in a prisoner's dilemma if everyone cooperates the payoff matrix is globally optimal. But for New York City it's a good deal, and those claiming otherwise refuse to look at the math and instead want to go with how the deal makes them feel. $150,000 x 25,000 = $3.75B/year. At NYS + NYC effective tax rate of around 9.25% at that income level that's around 350MM in income tax a…

you make it sound like those numbers are completely comprehensive and without agenda, and that these subsidies are an unmitigated good. but they completely ignore jobs lost, companies shuttered, environmental impacts, and opportunity costs. you're looking only at inflows and ignoring outflows. no systems dynamicist would take such an analysis seriously. systems have boundaries (by definition), and you must look at al…

Economic development numbers in NY are loaded with many of the things that you talk about.

As the flow of jobs to the south from the north has demonstrated, incentives work and offset the increased costs of doing business in a place like New York. Those costs are often criticized but include things like worker protection, environmental protection and other things that companies generally flee.

Re: The New York Hustle of Amazon’s Second Headquarters

#35

Post by bradleyjg »

booleandilemma wrote: post #25
bradleyjg wrote: post #11

For the nation as a whole it's a bad deal, in a prisoner's dilemma if everyone cooperates the payoff matrix is globally optimal. But for New York City it's a good deal, and those claiming otherwise refuse to look at the math and instead want to go with how the deal makes them feel. $150,000 x 25,000 = $3.75B/year. At NYS + NYC effective tax rate of around 9.25% at that income level that's around 350MM in income tax a…

And yet I just heard that the MTA is raising prices again this year. How many Fortune 100 companies need to move here before we get a working subway system?

The MTA's problems have far more to do with inefficiency, mismanagement, and corruption than they do with a lack of money. A big part of the problem is that it doesn't have an accountable governance structure. The current MTA board is made up of appointees of: the governor, the mayor, and the county executives of Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, and Orange counties. There needs to be one elected official, preferably one with the power to really negotiate with the contracting companies and the unions, that has ultimate responsibility for the system and it's problems.

Re: The New York Hustle of Amazon’s Second Headquarters

#36

Post by intopieces »

Eh. Everyone is acting like $3B is some massive some of money. The State of New York recently sealed a budget for ~$168B and and the economy of the state itself is somewhere around $1.2T. Hell, Amazon itself has a market cap of nearly 800B.

As of 2017, "[m]ore people are leaving the New York region than any other major metropolitan area in the country":

https://nypost.com/2017/04/01/people-are-fleeing-new-york-at...

So, 25k additional people is closer to stemming the tide of people leaving rather than overcrowding an already hot market.

Re: The New York Hustle of Amazon’s Second Headquarters

#37

Post by bradleyjg »

xxpor wrote: post #17
howard941 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd like to NYC mayor call out Amazon instead of allowing the good people of NYC to be railroaded. The announcement goosed property values in Brooklyn and Queens. I wouldn't be on a call out anytime soon.

NYC is majority renter.

This renter is hoping and expecting it to put upward pressure on wages. The NYC metro area isn't the Bay Area, the incumbent landowners can't take all the surplus value.

Re: The New York Hustle of Amazon’s Second Headquarters

#38

Post by clairity »

matchagaucho wrote: post #32
clairity wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you make it sound like those numbers are completely comprehensive and without agenda, and that these subsidies are an unmitigated good. but they completely ignore jobs lost, companies shuttered, environmental impacts, and opportunity costs. you're looking only at inflows and ignoring outflows. no systems dynamicist would take such an analysis seriously. systems have boundaries (by definition), and you must look at al…

"you ignore the fact that amazon probably would have set up shop in nyc for far fewer, and probably even zero, dollars in subsidies" Not a chance. Property tax incentives and subsidies are offered in all 50 U.S. states to encourage employer relocation. There is rampant competition.

but there is only one new york city.

Re: The New York Hustle of Amazon’s Second Headquarters

#39

Post by throwaway2048 »

jhall1468 wrote: post #22
jetcata wrote: post #13

The level of greed that Amazon and Bezos continue to demonstrate is sickening.

He's doing what most companies do: try to reduce their legal tax liability. If CEO's didn't do this, the boards of these companies would replace them with someone that will do it. You are blaming Bezos and an entity for standard corporate fair. That's a symptom of the problem.

I can hate the players that rig the game, thanks.

Re: The New York Hustle of Amazon’s Second Headquarters

#40

Post by bilbo0s »

clairity wrote: post #38
matchagaucho wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"you ignore the fact that amazon probably would have set up shop in nyc for far fewer, and probably even zero, dollars in subsidies" Not a chance. Property tax incentives and subsidies are offered in all 50 U.S. states to encourage employer relocation. There is rampant competition.

but there is only one new york city.

As arrogant as this comment may sound, when you're talking about a facility like Amazon's HQ2, HN user "clarity" is right.

There really is only one place that combines a ridiculous amount of technology expertise, with an east coast location, and multi-modal transport links to both the US and the Europe-Africa side of the world.

But that's all the more reason that NY state did not need to offer that much in subsidies. (Again, I know they got a good deal, but not giving Amazon anything would have been an even better deal.)

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