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China Rules – The Land That Failed to Fail

nytimes.com

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Re: China Rules – The Land That Failed to Fail

#51

Post by njarboe »

jamesjyu wrote: post #20
Edmond wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IP theft is an important part of the Chinese "Miracle" but it is short-sighted to focus too much on that...If IP access is all it took, I think we would have seen the Chinese achievement replicated in many other places.

Exactly. You need process knowledge in addition to IP in order to make innovation and manufacturing happen. And China is really good at cultivating process knowledge, something the US is slowly ceding to them.

Transferring process knowledge is why, until very recently (Tesla, others?), all companies have been required to minority partner with a Chinese company in China and thus transfer their process knowledge along with IP.

Re: China Rules – The Land That Failed to Fail

#52

Post by bilbo0s »

gammateam wrote: post #36
bilbo0s wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. So they steal bullet trains etc and we stole steam tech etc. I guess it just indicates that it's foolish for a nation to pay for technology if it's poor. I wonder are there any examples of poor nations in history that actually paid market prices for technology, and became super powers? (Or at least maybe regional powers?)

Would Germany count? Obviously Post WWII without any of their acquisitions, debilitated infrastructure, and debt Yet third time's a charm!

They didn't pay market prices. We gave them most of the stuff via the Marshall Plan. (You could say the same thing about Japan. We gave them all the stuff they needed to rebuild.)

I'm wondering if anyone has ever actually paid for the stuff they need?

Re: China Rules – The Land That Failed to Fail

#53

Post by scarcely »

Edmond wrote: post #7
neya wrote: post #2

Well, one thing that is mentioned in the article, but deserves a lot more attention is IP theft. You should read about the chilling IP theft case of the bullet train where China pretended to contract Japan for the bullet train, but used it to steal their IP, patent it all and screw them over. Here's a really good documentary on how much engineering went into Japan's bullet trains. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA4a…

IP theft is an important part of the Chinese "Miracle" but it is short-sighted to focus too much on that...If IP access is all it took, I think we would have seen the Chinese achievement replicated in many other places.

America owes its very existence to the land it stole from Native Americans. It owes a huge part of its prosperity to the entire lives it stole from generations of black people by using them as draft animal (hence freeing the white man to think about science, mathematics, whatever). The entire material infrastructure that enabled the production of these fruits of the intellect is stolen, with direct violent human consequences (by comparison, the consequence of "IP theft" is that certain already well-to-do entrepreneurs make less money than they think they are entitled to). It's like if I kicked someone out of their house, adducted someone else, put them in my basement in chains to work for me. I then did a bunch of experiments and came up with some nice designs. But as I was the process of monetizing them I realize someone else stole the design for me, and now I suddenly feel morally outraged. How can he do that to me? The injustice!!

(To anyone who's prepared to invoke 'whataboutism' or whatever, note that my point is that the US's moral outrage is hypocritical, given its extensive history of (much more violent) theft. It's not about whether "IP theft" is morally permissible.)

Re: China Rules – The Land That Failed to Fail

#54

Post by ced »

_iyig wrote: post #24
rongenre wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They stole the idea from the US: https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/12/06/we-were-pirates-too/

In the 18th and 19th centuries, infringement of British patents was stated U.S. policy. In contrast, China keeps saying one thing and doing another. For example: they deny any involvement in industrial espionage, yet keep doing it. They are a member of the WTO, yet they consistently flout its rules. Then they have the chutzpah to complain about U.S. tariffs. If you ask me, it's the malicious and persistent dishonesty…

Which country are you from, that is such a beacon of moral righteousness on the global stage?

Re: China Rules – The Land That Failed to Fail

#55

Post by arethuza »

whooshee wrote: post #49
rongenre wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They stole the idea from the US: https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/12/06/we-were-pirates-too/

And the British https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/arti...

The UK also did something similar with rubber - originally it was a product closely guarded by Brazil but a "bio-pirate" stole samples and they were then planted widely within the Empire - with Malaya going on to become the top producer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Wickham_(explorer)

Re: China Rules – The Land That Failed to Fail

#56

Post by OldHand2018 »

joefranklinsrs wrote: post #9

Very optimistic piece about the Chinese economy from a Chinese American who now resides in China. The author works for Washington Post, which is owned by Jeff Bezos, whose company Amazon greatly benefits from China. There is no doubt this is a piece that is trying to rally around a very unlikely scenario where the US administration will give into Chinese belligerence and back off on trade tariffs at the end of Novemb…

> A trade war which the US is winning strongly.

If you're wondering about the American soybean farmers that China has targeted as a response, you'll see that they are... simply looking at the commodities futures markets and making rational economic decisions [1]. I'm sure that this is not at all what China was hoping to accomplish.

[1] https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-soybeans-chin...

The bags farmers are using are not new technology, they have been around since the 1990s: https://extension.purdue.edu/article/6963

Re: China Rules – The Land That Failed to Fail

#57

Post by faitswulff »

liftbigweights wrote: post #50
faitswulff wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To see all this being stolen by someone who just walked in, pretending to make a deal, is so painful. I mean, if you want to talk about pain, a lot of Chinese people see Japan primarily as the country responsible for the Rape of Nanking [0], among other atrocities. It doesn't make IP theft justified, but it probably puts it into context for why the Chinese government, people, or companies would have very little com…

But most of the atrocities in china in the 20th century were committed by the chinese against other chinese? And most of the atrocities in the 19th century were by european imperialists. Also, everyone committed atrocities against everyone else. Using your logic, we should all be stealing from each other since it is all justified because of historical wrongs. Sure you can't be arguing that?

> Sure you can't be arguing that?

You're right, I wasn't.

Re: China Rules – The Land That Failed to Fail

#58

Post by dontreact »

scarcely wrote: post #53
Edmond wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IP theft is an important part of the Chinese "Miracle" but it is short-sighted to focus too much on that...If IP access is all it took, I think we would have seen the Chinese achievement replicated in many other places.

America owes its very existence to the land it stole from Native Americans. It owes a huge part of its prosperity to the entire lives it stole from generations of black people by using them as draft animal (hence freeing the white man to think about science, mathematics, whatever). The entire material infrastructure that enabled the production of these fruits of the intellect is stolen, with direct violent human cons…

My parents immigrated here. Is it hypocritical for me to be upset about this?

Also my interpretation of the parent post is that we should not attribute China’s success to their authoritarian government without considering IP theft as a major factor.

Re: China Rules – The Land That Failed to Fail

#59

Post by 40acres »

China has mastered the balancing act between authoritarian and free market policies. In a way, the West's persistence that eventually prosperity would lead to Democratic policies always seemed a bit condescending and short sighted to me, democracy is a strong form of government, but why does it have to be the only one?

The big variable here is growth, the social contract between China and it's citizens seems to be one of: we'll provide you with massive growth in exchange for privacy and lack of control. There was plenty of space for growth and millions of Chinese moved to the middle class, but once growth slows will they demand more? Has the government clamped down on speech already been too effective to derail a liberalization movement?

At the end of the day, I think China is just too large to not outpace the United States as a global leader. China has learned how to grow from all the Western Powers and has an incredible amount of greenfield to keep going.

Re: China Rules – The Land That Failed to Fail

#60

Post by toyg »

simion314 wrote: post #39
dforrestwilson wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most countries don’t have the military or self-sufficient economics of China though. French Polynesia could probably never do this kind of thing to Japan for example.

What do you mean? Can NATO or US force any law they want? If I am in a small country and decide that patents and copyright is evil should I expect a war? If not what do you mean by military in your comment? As I see it if you don't like China politics don't do business with them and do not involve the army(though we all know some big countries like to get involved in smaller countries politics and force laws).

Most smaller countries get subsidies from bigger ones. As the ruler of a small country, if you don’t play ball, those subsidies will go away, you’ll be blackballed, you won’t get those prestigious official visits that can boost your local popularity, you won’t get preferential treatment or inclusion in free-trade agreements, your citizens will have to pay for tourist visas, your exports will be triple-checked and slowed down at ports, the powerful “allied” military won’t show up at your ports (which makes your neighbours think twice about bullying you), etc etc etc. There are a million ways to basically ostracise a country without the issue ever surfacing on international media.
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