Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not what reductionism is. It says there are certain elements that interact with each other in certain ways. It does not concern itself with the nature of configurations of such elements, and how those evolve. These may be extremely complex configurations, of huge numbers of the elements, that evolve in very complex ways. A really important point about this, which is usually misunderstood, is that "does not con…
> Also, this is not a matter of what we "like" or "dislike". It's a matter of how reality is or isn't, and what we like or dislike has no bearing on that. What we know about how reality is or isn't has a very big impact on what we like or dislike.
Bewilderment is the antidote to scientific reductionism
31–40 of 41 posts
Re: Bewilderment is the antidote to scientific reductionism
#32It is important to remember that when explaining a fact, it is important not to negate the fact in the process of explaining it. To do so would result not in an explanation, but something else. That something else may be useful, but explanations are not first and foremost about being useful. An explanation is about accounting completely for the causes of a fact as it actually is. The mechanistic philosophy, in construing the world and things within it as machines, destroys whole classes of facts, not least of all because what machines are is observer-relative. Their components are arranged according to human ends that are extrinsic to the machine itself and not according to some intrinsic tendency of the machine. Thus, to construe all of reality in mechanistic terms necessarily forces us to make these broad denials. Furthermore, these human ends (as well as the awe, wonder, experience of mystery and whatever else the author invokes and beyond) are facts which must themselves be accounted for. A mechanistic materialist, when confronted with these facts, is left to either deny their existence (eliminativism), posit a non-mechanistic mind-or-something-else where these facts exist (dualism and its variations) or to reject mechanism. While we need not resort to mental phenomena to criticize mechanism and reductionism, perhaps nowhere else is it made more obvious how defective mechanism is as a metaphysical position.
Since Descartes, mechanists either swept broad classes of facts under the rug of the res cogitans or attributed them to God (think Paley). Mechanistic materialism, having denied both the res cogitans and God, is left to deal with these facts on mechanistic terms. Unfortunately, mechanistic methods are here in principle incapable of explaining them, at least not completely.
Ultimately, mechanistic materialism must be rejected in favor of a richer metaphysics.
Re: Bewilderment is the antidote to scientific reductionism
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is quantum mechanics a good model to describe chemistry? Biology? Psychology? History?
That doesn't mean that it is something in need of an antidote (which is specifically what the person you were replying to was bringing up). Of course understanding quantum mechanics does not give you an understanding of psychology, and nothing about reductionism claims it does! Reductionism says basically that everything is evolving configurations of quantumn-mechanical elements, interacting in quantum mechanical way…
Re: Bewilderment is the antidote to scientific reductionism
#34Wonder and awe are well and good, and certainly the world is awe-inspiring and wonderful. And certainly, the deepening of our understanding of it is can lead us to marvel at it. However, the problem with the article is that it doesn't really get into the meat of the matter of mechanistic materialism. Mechanism is a metaphysical position that we often today take for granted and do so unthinkingly and tacitly, that is…
Re: Bewilderment is the antidote to scientific reductionism
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why would reductionism reduce the majesty of complexity? Cellular automata are about as simple and reductionist as you can get, but they produce breathtaking complexity. Conway's game of life is simply brilliant. Reduction gives your appreciation new depths.
Music to me is a perfect example. The X factor or various shows try to reduce it to a formula and to me the result is crap (in my opinion). Likewise with cooking, but I guess many people like McDonalds.
You can't just say let's not try to explain sth because previous attempts fell short. If that was what smart humans do we would still be in awe why the fire is burning.
Re: Bewilderment is the antidote to scientific reductionism
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
That doesn't mean that it is something in need of an antidote (which is specifically what the person you were replying to was bringing up). Of course understanding quantum mechanics does not give you an understanding of psychology, and nothing about reductionism claims it does! Reductionism says basically that everything is evolving configurations of quantumn-mechanical elements, interacting in quantum mechanical way…
You have a very strange, almost anti-reductionist definition of reductionism. https://www.iep.utm.edu/red-ism/
Same way you can think about chemistry and physics, and biology and chemistry.
Reductionism just says that complex behaviors come from simple rules applied to large number of interacting parts and no additional magic whatsoever. Which makes it only way of looking at things that is grounded in reality, as confirmed by science.
Re: Bewilderment is the antidote to scientific reductionism
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Also, this is not a matter of what we "like" or "dislike". It's a matter of how reality is or isn't, and what we like or dislike has no bearing on that. What we know about how reality is or isn't has a very big impact on what we like or dislike.
What's your point? This doesn't relate to what you originally said, or to my reply to that.
My point is, to repeat myself, that what we consider the reality behind the way something is made, what it is composed of, etc, does play a role on whether we like or dislike it. Like or dislike extends beyond the final artifact.
We could even like something (e.g. a painting) and stop liking it, even though it's the same, if we find that it's e.g. an imitation and not the original, or that some romantic story of how the painter created it is not real, etc.
The same can happen when we discover a reductionist explanation of something we admire or are in awe of, that makes it less intriguing and mysterious. E.g. "you think love is some glorious connection to this particular person, but the feeling is just a chemically induced thing, and we can arbitrarily make you feel it for any random person if we inject you with this".
Re: Bewilderment is the antidote to scientific reductionism
#38Wonder and awe are well and good, and certainly the world is awe-inspiring and wonderful. And certainly, the deepening of our understanding of it is can lead us to marvel at it. However, the problem with the article is that it doesn't really get into the meat of the matter of mechanistic materialism. Mechanism is a metaphysical position that we often today take for granted and do so unthinkingly and tacitly, that is…
None of what you said makes any sense to anyone but a philosopher and has no value in the real world.
Re: Bewilderment is the antidote to scientific reductionism
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Because [some of us] don't really like breathtaking complexity that's reducible to some simple rules. Or at least don't like that kind of complexity to be the norm. And if investigation reveals that all art and music are governed by simple rules, you're suddenly going to dislike all art and music? How precisely does revealing the hidden reality suddenly reduce how pleasing something is to the senses?
> How precisely does revealing the hidden reality suddenly reduce how pleasing something is to the senses? How "pleasing something is to the senses" is a complex phenomenon, not some crude constant -- and it's subjective basis has a lot of interplay with eras, norms, goals, and lots of other stuff, including how we feel and what we know about it. When you know how the "sausage is made" you can like it less, even to t…
Re: Bewilderment is the antidote to scientific reductionism
#40Seeing the title I thought this article was going to be about the "problem" of reductionism. But it delightfully doesn't fall into that trap and acknowledges that reductionism to the lowest useful components does not necessarily imply low complexity. Then goes on to express wonderment at the remaining complexity after reductionism. That's fine, I guess. Just as long as we all remember there's no such thing as a chemi…
> there's no such thing as a chemical that makes you fall in love. I read this article a while ago that suggests love is produced by the releasing of various chemicals: https://www.thoughtco.com/the-chemistry-of-love-609354 .
I am a reductionist. But there's no such thing as a chemical in love. Such descriptions are necessary but not nearly sufficient.