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International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

npl.co.uk

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Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#321

Post by naikrovek »

Just_Smith wrote: post #312
dyarosla wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only is it trivial to just cut at 33.33 or what have you, your argument breaks down at cut it into 1/5s. Good luck with imperial. And has to be accurate to .02mm. In metric? This is a no brainer

That doesn't really hurt the argument at all - you're just arguing about factors now, and if you're really going to go there, 12 wins due to having more factors. The mathematical correction you'll have to do to measure 1/5th will be displaced by all the correction you don't have to do for other cases.

You're bent on the whole number thing. Why?

Whole numbers don't make things easier to measure or cut or reason about. I can measure in thirds or fifths of a meter or a foot or an inch or any unit you want with a compass and a straight edge.

You're arguing that the mark on the tape measure is possible for imperial and impossible for metric, when thirds are involved. Not true.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#322

Post by cgriswald »

akira2501 wrote: post #278
naikrovek wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are definitely (and thankfully) not the norm. Imperial units are awful. They're more ... human, maybe, in that a foot is about one human foot long, and that an inch is about one human thumb width, and how 0F feels "pretty cold" and 100F feels "pretty hot", and to me the charm of imperial units begins and ends right there. Those are literally the only redeemable qualities about imperial units, and they have nothin…

> They're more ... human, maybe I think both systems of units typical cases are dominated by human factors. Anecdotally, humans tend to use one of three scales for their preferred choice of measurement and they tend to be smaller-than-human, human, larger-than-human. For example, the km. I see mm, m and km used quite often.. but the other bases are almost never used. A prime case for this is "what is the distance to…

> A prime case for this is "what is the distance to the sun?"

I was attending a kids planetarium show as a volunteer and the professor asked this question and a kid proudly shouted “1 AU!”

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#323

Post by jodrellblank »

Just_Smith wrote: post #283
kderbyma wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, while mathematically speaking 12 is a great base, people don't think in twelves - you can quickly perform arithmetic and our entire education system of math relies on base 10. Kind of hard to suddenly add two fingers to everyone. Additionally, base 12, would not act like 12 does in base 10, thus if base 12 is your key point of reference, a foot should be 10 in base 12 for inches.....

People don't really think in terms of 10s either - that's just societal conditioning based on the usage of fingers to count. If you can accurately picture 1/3 of set, but your number system cannot, it's not really that accommodating of a system. By the way, you can count base12 on your hands using the digits of your fingers. We just teach kids to use fingers because it's the norm.

Why are you so obsessed with thirds? If you care about short, clean fractions on a human scale, base 6 is overall better, see this table: https://youtu.be/qID2B4MK7Y0?t=992

Plus you get all the convenience of having five digits on a hand and 5 as the highest counting digit, so you can count to 55 on two hands, and all the rest of the benefits in that (totally serious) video.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#324

Post by EricBurnett »

blhack wrote: post #232
kibwen wrote: post #188

See, the US wasn't being stubborn in not adopting metric, it was just waiting patiently for it to progress from beta to 1.0. :) (Fun fact: all the US customary units have been officially defined in terms of their metric counterparts since 1893: https://www.nist.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pml/wmd/m... )

I'm one of the weird people that actually really likes imperial units. For instance: 1 foot -- base 12. This is a superior base to 10. It can be easily divided into 4ths, 3rd, and 2nds. Base 10 can only easily be divided into 2nds. 1 inch -- an easily identifiable unit of measure for smallish things. About the width of my thumb. A pretty good unit. For low precision, inches become 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/6, 1/64, etc. Each…

Hmm, good for usage you say. Ok, let's stick to "standard" imperial units. How many feet in a yard? Yards in a mile? What the hell is a quart? And since base 12 is great, what is 12 feet called? 144 feet? A 12th of an inch?

Or, ounces: How many ounces in a gallon? A pound? And how many _kinds_ of ounces are there, anyways?

Fun fact: The term “ounce” is of Latin origin from the word “uncia” which means “a twelfth part.” http://www.differencebetween.net/science/mathematics-statist... So...what's an ounce a twelfth of?

Or, say, a pint. What's the definition of a pint?

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#325

Post by Just_Smith »

naikrovek wrote: post #319
Just_Smith wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point if you don't see the problem of an infinitely repeating measurement. That doesn't translate to a tangible action. You can't cut 1/3 of a meter, and there's no subunit to roll down to that can express the right number. It's not like Imperial system exists for uneducated people - it exists for trades people. Metric is the "simple" system, because it ties back to 10, a number we're all used to.…

I can cut 1/3 of a meter just as accurately as you can cut 1/3 of a yard. Not being a whole number does not make it harder to find where it is.

Ha! I'm happy for your apparent virtuosity, but the whole of America's construction industry is quite a few years into disagreeing with you.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#326

Post by Just_Smith »

naikrovek wrote: post #321
Just_Smith wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't really hurt the argument at all - you're just arguing about factors now, and if you're really going to go there, 12 wins due to having more factors. The mathematical correction you'll have to do to measure 1/5th will be displaced by all the correction you don't have to do for other cases.

You're bent on the whole number thing. Why? Whole numbers don't make things easier to measure or cut or reason about. I can measure in thirds or fifths of a meter or a foot or an inch or any unit you want with a compass and a straight edge. You're arguing that the mark on the tape measure is possible for imperial and impossible for metric, when thirds are involved. Not true.

Because infinite numbers are not a natural expression of discrete measurements, and when it comes to being price 1/3 = 4 is always going to be easier to put your finger on than 1/3 = 3.333.

I work in software and data analysis in the construction industry. A continuous measurement is good for some things, but it's definitely not good for discrete measurements. Furthermore, a lot of the people who work in the field for construction greatly prefer Imperial for a reason. They have no bias towards systems beyond what works fast and easy.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#327

Post by Just_Smith »

Just_Smith wrote: post #326
naikrovek wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're bent on the whole number thing. Why? Whole numbers don't make things easier to measure or cut or reason about. I can measure in thirds or fifths of a meter or a foot or an inch or any unit you want with a compass and a straight edge. You're arguing that the mark on the tape measure is possible for imperial and impossible for metric, when thirds are involved. Not true.

Because infinite numbers are not a natural expression of discrete measurements, and when it comes to being price 1/3 = 4 is always going to be easier to put your finger on than 1/3 = 3.333. I work in software and data analysis in the construction industry. A continuous measurement is good for some things, but it's definitely not good for discrete measurements. Furthermore, a lot of the people who work in the field fo…

"price" is an autocorrection of "precise"

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#328

Post by bkanber »

kmm wrote: post #304
anamexis wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For most things, I think metric makes more sense, but I fully agree about temperatures. Fahrenheit is a superior scale for humans.

I can just barely feel the difference of temperature of one degree Celsius. I really don't feel multiplying that by 1.8 will make a big difference in how good a scale it is for humans.

As an example, the common temperatures in NYC range from 0-100F. In celcius that's like -18 to +38.

I'm a scientist and an engineer, and in those applications C is often better. But in daily life, Fahrenheit makes a ton of sense.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#329

Post by AngryData »

blhack wrote: post #232
kibwen wrote: post #188

See, the US wasn't being stubborn in not adopting metric, it was just waiting patiently for it to progress from beta to 1.0. :) (Fun fact: all the US customary units have been officially defined in terms of their metric counterparts since 1893: https://www.nist.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pml/wmd/m... )

I'm one of the weird people that actually really likes imperial units. For instance: 1 foot -- base 12. This is a superior base to 10. It can be easily divided into 4ths, 3rd, and 2nds. Base 10 can only easily be divided into 2nds. 1 inch -- an easily identifiable unit of measure for smallish things. About the width of my thumb. A pretty good unit. For low precision, inches become 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/6, 1/64, etc. Each…

0 degrees Farenheit is also the temperature salt stops freezing water. It is a good thing to remember when you are wondering about driving on snowy and icy roads.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#330

Post by nhebb »

EricBurnett wrote: post #324
blhack wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the weird people that actually really likes imperial units. For instance: 1 foot -- base 12. This is a superior base to 10. It can be easily divided into 4ths, 3rd, and 2nds. Base 10 can only easily be divided into 2nds. 1 inch -- an easily identifiable unit of measure for smallish things. About the width of my thumb. A pretty good unit. For low precision, inches become 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/6, 1/64, etc. Each…

Hmm, good for usage you say. Ok, let's stick to "standard" imperial units. How many feet in a yard? Yards in a mile? What the hell is a quart? And since base 12 is great, what is 12 feet called? 144 feet? A 12th of an inch? Or, ounces: How many ounces in a gallon? A pound? And how many _kinds_ of ounces are there, anyways? Fun fact: The term “ounce” is of Latin origin from the word “uncia” which means “a twelfth part…

A pint is what British people drink in pubs while chastising the US for not adopting the metric system.
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