International System of Units overhauled in historic vote • Hacker News Board

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#301

Post by comex » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:53 AM UTC

akira2501 wrote: post #278

naikrovek wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are definitely (and thankfully) not the norm. Imperial units are awful. They're more ... human, maybe, in that a foot is about one human foot long, and that an inch is about one human thumb width, and how 0F feels "pretty cold" and 100F feels "pretty hot", and to me the charm of imperial units begins and ends right there. Those are literally the only redeemable qualities about imperial units, and they have nothin…

> They're more ... human, maybe I think both systems of units typical cases are dominated by human factors. Anecdotally, humans tend to use one of three scales for their preferred choice of measurement and they tend to be smaller-than-human, human, larger-than-human. For example, the km. I see mm, m and km used quite often.. but the other bases are almost never used. A prime case for this is "what is the distance to…

Nitpick: centimeters are also used often.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#302

Post by Just_Smith » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:55 AM UTC

mbroncano wrote: post #265

blhack wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the weird people that actually really likes imperial units. For instance: 1 foot -- base 12. This is a superior base to 10. It can be easily divided into 4ths, 3rd, and 2nds. Base 10 can only easily be divided into 2nds. 1 inch -- an easily identifiable unit of measure for smallish things. About the width of my thumb. A pretty good unit. For low precision, inches become 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/6, 1/64, etc. Each…

Most probably because you grew up with it. I’m pretty sure you think the same about your religion, nation, race ... but be sure eveybody else in the world may think the same of their own. And they’d be right too. What I personally find disturbing is how irrational positions such as yours are commonly accepted in a supposedly advanced society. It leads to a pretty bumpy road, time and time again.

And what I personally find disturbing is your idea that their view conflicting with yours is somehow an indication that they are obstructing advancement. To me, that seems much more problematic than them favoring the number 12 for common measurements.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#303

Post by tylerhou » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:55 AM UTC

Just_Smith wrote: post #300

naikrovek wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because adding 7/16ths of an inch to 7/8ths of a mile and getting an answer in inches isn't easy for a human. Adding 1cm to 982m and getting an answer in centimeters is dead easy for a human. THAT'S why human intuition about measurement doesn't mean a damn thing. Using metric means using the system optimized for humans. Period.

Your absolutism is a bit silly. I don't think the Imperial system is good for anything beyond construction or cooking, but there's a reason it excels those areas. And it's exactly because it's more usable by humans in certain contexts (like construction or cooking). 1/3 of a meter should not be an irrational number - how is that "optimized for humans"? A scalable system that shares the divisibility of the foot would…

Nit: 1/3 of a meter is rational. You're looking for "whole number."

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#304

Post by kmm » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:56 AM UTC

anamexis wrote: post #240

blhack wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the weird people that actually really likes imperial units. For instance: 1 foot -- base 12. This is a superior base to 10. It can be easily divided into 4ths, 3rd, and 2nds. Base 10 can only easily be divided into 2nds. 1 inch -- an easily identifiable unit of measure for smallish things. About the width of my thumb. A pretty good unit. For low precision, inches become 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/6, 1/64, etc. Each…

For most things, I think metric makes more sense, but I fully agree about temperatures. Fahrenheit is a superior scale for humans.

I can just barely feel the difference of temperature of one degree Celsius. I really don't feel multiplying that by 1.8 will make a big difference in how good a scale it is for humans.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#305

Post by zjaffee » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:59 AM UTC

blhack wrote: post #232

kibwen wrote: post #188

See, the US wasn't being stubborn in not adopting metric, it was just waiting patiently for it to progress from beta to 1.0. :) (Fun fact: all the US customary units have been officially defined in terms of their metric counterparts since 1893: https://www.nist.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pml/wmd/m... )

I'm one of the weird people that actually really likes imperial units. For instance: 1 foot -- base 12. This is a superior base to 10. It can be easily divided into 4ths, 3rd, and 2nds. Base 10 can only easily be divided into 2nds. 1 inch -- an easily identifiable unit of measure for smallish things. About the width of my thumb. A pretty good unit. For low precision, inches become 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/6, 1/64, etc. Each…

While I agree that in many ways imperial is better than metric in the way that you mention. It is absolutely atrocious when it comes to weight and volume. A gallon is still a base 10 unit of measure of water (10 pounds of water). Then only after that, is it in base 8 rather than maintaining that base 12 consistency.

Then if you look at imperial units of weight, it deviates away from base 12 again. It counts upwards from a pound using base 14 with stone and ton. And then when counting downwards it uses base 16 for a little bit with ounces, followed by out of nowhere throwing in a 1/7000 for a grain unit.

Even ignoring the scientific applications, none of this is easier for visualization purposes than grams or kilograms, nor is it all that useful for volumetric units either with maybe the exception of using cups instead of milliliters for cooking.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#306

Post by jawns » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 2:01 AM UTC

mbroncano wrote: post #265

blhack wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the weird people that actually really likes imperial units. For instance: 1 foot -- base 12. This is a superior base to 10. It can be easily divided into 4ths, 3rd, and 2nds. Base 10 can only easily be divided into 2nds. 1 inch -- an easily identifiable unit of measure for smallish things. About the width of my thumb. A pretty good unit. For low precision, inches become 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/6, 1/64, etc. Each…

Most probably because you grew up with it. I’m pretty sure you think the same about your religion, nation, race ... but be sure eveybody else in the world may think the same of their own. And they’d be right too. What I personally find disturbing is how irrational positions such as yours are commonly accepted in a supposedly advanced society. It leads to a pretty bumpy road, time and time again.

> irrational positions such as yours

This is, frankly, insulting. You may disagree about the merits of blhack's arguments, but that doesn't make them illogical or unreasonable.

It would be one thing if you said, "Here's why I think blhack has got it wrong, and why the arguments presented don't hold water." But you just tossed an insult without bothering to refute. Bad form.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#307

Post by dyarosla » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 2:02 AM UTC

fingerlocks wrote: post #298

naikrovek wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1/3 can easily be measured in metric... it's just not a whole number. Far out I can invent a system that is unique to everything, and I can create my own abominable conversion ratios all I like. It doesn't make the system superior, it makes my system necessarily inferior. My TV is now 12 Settos in size. My surround system consumes 12 audots of power. My fridge holds 12 cubic fudo of room. There. Now everything is eas…

I challenge you to make a 1/3 cut in meter length wood using a metric ruler. Must be accurate to 1/128 inch (0.2mm), the tolerance used in fine woodworking.

Not only is it trivial to just cut at 33.33 or what have you, your argument breaks down at cut it into 1/5s.

Good luck with imperial. And has to be accurate to .02mm. In metric? This is a no brainer

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#308

Post by tom_ » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 2:02 AM UTC

blhack wrote: post #232

kibwen wrote: post #188

See, the US wasn't being stubborn in not adopting metric, it was just waiting patiently for it to progress from beta to 1.0. :) (Fun fact: all the US customary units have been officially defined in terms of their metric counterparts since 1893: https://www.nist.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pml/wmd/m... )

I'm one of the weird people that actually really likes imperial units. For instance: 1 foot -- base 12. This is a superior base to 10. It can be easily divided into 4ths, 3rd, and 2nds. Base 10 can only easily be divided into 2nds. 1 inch -- an easily identifiable unit of measure for smallish things. About the width of my thumb. A pretty good unit. For low precision, inches become 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/6, 1/64, etc. Each…

It's true that (for example) a third of a metre isn't expressible accurately in decimetres, but you can always just say (continuing this specific example) "a third of a metre". Nobody will be confused about what you mean.

This is however perhaps a good argument in favour of non-decimal currency.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#309

Post by terragon » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 2:08 AM UTC

blhack wrote: post #275

ape4 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see you're not liking how many feet are in a mile (and many other silly things).

Well I also don't particularly care about how many feet are in a kilometer, since they are different units. A mile is...a mile. A half a mile, a quarter of a mile, an eighth of a mile, etc. Yeah, there are 5280 feet in a mile. There are also 25.8 or something like that mm in a inch, some other arbitrary unit of conversion that we all have to memorize.

Your second example is disingenuous. Mm to inch is going to be a weird conversion because they are between different unit systems. Feet to miles is unacceptable considering they're both imperial units.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#310

Post by Just_Smith » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 2:09 AM UTC

naikrovek wrote: post #292

Just_Smith wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the statement that metric is more useful for measurement largely ignores the fact that Imperial has stuck around so long because of its usefulness in trade work. It's definitely ONLY because of base12, but being base12 - imo - positions it far beyond metric for daily use. There's a reason why food items so commonly come by the dozen. Why would anyone prefer to build a house using a system that can't even accura…

1/3 can easily be measured in metric... it's just not a whole number. Far out I can invent a system that is unique to everything, and I can create my own abominable conversion ratios all I like. It doesn't make the system superior, it makes my system necessarily inferior. My TV is now 12 Settos in size. My surround system consumes 12 audots of power. My fridge holds 12 cubic fudo of room. There. Now everything is eas…

You're missing the point if you don't see the problem of an infinitely repeating measurement. That doesn't translate to a tangible action. You can't cut 1/3 of a meter, and there's no subunit to roll down to that can express the right number. It's not like Imperial system exists for uneducated people - it exists for trades people. Metric is the "simple" system, because it ties back to 10, a number we're all used to. I like the metric system for its scalability, but as somebody who works in a math-y area of computing, I have nothing but distaste for base10.