International System of Units overhauled in historic vote • Hacker News Board

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#291

Post by ubernostrum » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:36 AM UTC

combatentropy wrote: post #212

beloch wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to commend my American friends for their undying loyalty to the memory of the Empire. U.S. customary units are derived from units that helped the British conquer the world, but even the British themselves have shamelessly abandoned them for the units of a filthy, monarch-less republic. It's good to see that Americans still subconsciously yearn for the firm ruling hand of their rightful Queen. Note: Americans h…

It just doesn't have the same ring to it. "He won't move an inch," or "He won't move a centimeter." "She won't quit until she's six feet under," or "She won't quit until she's two meters under." "I'll go the whole nine yards," or "I'll go the whole nine meters." "You can see for miles and miles," or "You can see for kilometers and kilometers."

As our metric British friends say at the end of a long day: "Ah, I can't wait to get down to the pub and have my hard-earned 568.261 ml!"

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#292

Post by naikrovek » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:37 AM UTC

Just_Smith wrote: post #280

blhack wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They're more ... human, maybe, in that a foot is about one human foot long, and that an inch is about one human thumb width, and how 0F feels "pretty cold" and 100F feels "pretty hot", and to me the charm of imperial units begins and ends right there. As far as we know, humans are the only thing in the universe that care about any of this stuff. A computer couldn't care less if you are using 1 foot or 0.3048 meters.…

Also, the statement that metric is more useful for measurement largely ignores the fact that Imperial has stuck around so long because of its usefulness in trade work. It's definitely ONLY because of base12, but being base12 - imo - positions it far beyond metric for daily use. There's a reason why food items so commonly come by the dozen. Why would anyone prefer to build a house using a system that can't even accura…

1/3 can easily be measured in metric... it's just not a whole number.

Far out I can invent a system that is unique to everything, and I can create my own abominable conversion ratios all I like. It doesn't make the system superior, it makes my system necessarily inferior.

My TV is now 12 Settos in size. My surround system consumes 12 audots of power. My fridge holds 12 cubic fudo of room.

There. Now everything is easily divisible by 12ths.

I won't even go into conversion factors on this insanity.

Metric is objectively the better system to anyone that doesn't have a decades-long familiarity with the stupidity that is the imperial system. That's coming from an american without a college education, by the way. I am the target demographic for the pro-imperial people. I wasn't abducted into any metric-only education system and forced to convert or fail and disappoint my family. I was a disappointment by my own hand, thank you very much.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#293

Post by kbenson » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:38 AM UTC

megablast wrote: post #279

blhack wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the weird people that actually really likes imperial units. For instance: 1 foot -- base 12. This is a superior base to 10. It can be easily divided into 4ths, 3rd, and 2nds. Base 10 can only easily be divided into 2nds. 1 inch -- an easily identifiable unit of measure for smallish things. About the width of my thumb. A pretty good unit. For low precision, inches become 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/6, 1/64, etc. Each…

No matter what is suggested, no matter how much better the alternative, there will always be a group of contrary people. Look at flat earthers. Look at anti-vaxers.

There are actual benefits to some imperial units when working in small amounts. They can often be subdivided much more easily into amounts that are harder to handle (or at least require going to another order of magnitude to do accurately).

For example, dividing a foot into thirds or fourths is trivial, but for a meter it requires either going two orders of magnitude (25/100ths for a quarter) or simply cannot perfectly represent the amount (1/3).

Now, not all imperial units have sane definitions, and they don't even all follow similar rules (8 fluid oz. to a cup, 16 fluid ozz to a pint, you lose thirds but can still easily do fourths).

In a lot of ways, base 10 is really substandard to base 12, we just used base 10 because it's physically easy and socially ingrained. Who knows, maybe 100 years from now we'll teach in base 12 and have a new system that's base 12, and all the metric die-hards will been seen as backwards yokels that cling to a clearly substandard system because of history and it's what they know? I mean, I really, really doubt it, but it would be better than the metric system as long as most people could easily think in base 12 (which would require a massive social upheaval).

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#294

Post by anamexis » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:41 AM UTC

Terr_ wrote: post #273

jakelazaroff wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Co-signed! The freezing and boiling points of water are also not particularly pragmatic points of reference. I don't think "I need to lower this to 0°", I think "I need to put this in the freezer".

> The freezing and boiling points of water are also not particularly pragmatic points of reference. I must strongly disagree. The freezing point of water is an incredibly important and pragmatic point of reference for hundreds of millions of people around the world, who live in places where water can freeze (or thaw) on its own outdoors. Not just for transportation, but also its affect on biology in agriculture. Whil…

I'll concede that freezing is very important to a lot of people, but at the same time, I don't think it's particularly onerous to remember that the freezing point is 32 degrees.

As far as boiling and cooking, I would argue that there is no magic number anyways, since boiling point is variable by elevation. At 7500 feet / ~2250 meters, water boils at 198°F.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#295

Post by guelo » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:44 AM UTC

blhack wrote: post #259

saagarjha wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s based on the decimal system, which we happen to use in our primary numerical system as well?

We use the decimal system for imperial units too. Thousands of an inch, millionths of an inch, etc.

Or nothing is stopping you from using things like 1.3 inches, 2.7 miles, .6 gallons. I tend to use the fractions when doing measurements in my head. But if things get too complicated and I have a calculator I switch to decimal.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#296

Post by hrasyid » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:46 AM UTC

blhack wrote: post #232

kibwen wrote: post #188

See, the US wasn't being stubborn in not adopting metric, it was just waiting patiently for it to progress from beta to 1.0. :) (Fun fact: all the US customary units have been officially defined in terms of their metric counterparts since 1893: https://www.nist.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pml/wmd/m... )

I'm one of the weird people that actually really likes imperial units. For instance: 1 foot -- base 12. This is a superior base to 10. It can be easily divided into 4ths, 3rd, and 2nds. Base 10 can only easily be divided into 2nds. 1 inch -- an easily identifiable unit of measure for smallish things. About the width of my thumb. A pretty good unit. For low precision, inches become 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/6, 1/64, etc. Each…

I understand some of what you say, but the point of standard unit is not so that people can choose which unit they like. It's to make sure everyone uses the same ones. If all but a few countries used imperial as their standard measure then I'd go for it. But right now it's the odd one out. Itu mostly survived only thanks to being associated with an economic superpower, so international companies can't afford to ignore it.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#297

Post by JCSato » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:47 AM UTC

blhack wrote: post #274

mbroncano wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most probably because you grew up with it. I’m pretty sure you think the same about your religion, nation, race ... but be sure eveybody else in the world may think the same of their own. And they’d be right too. What I personally find disturbing is how irrational positions such as yours are commonly accepted in a supposedly advanced society. It leads to a pretty bumpy road, time and time again.

Well I actually grew up with the metric system. I'm also not the religion I was raised. I do love my nation, which is easy because I'm American and there is a lot to love. Imperial units are just better for humans to use. I would love if somebody could give me a redeeming quality for metric, but so far nobody has.

I generally find them easier to manipulate, which is a frequent use for measuring distance. Honestly, I think the big thing hampering metric adoption is that no one uses decimeters. Kilometers are useful for trip distances, centimeters/millimeters are useful for small/precise measurements, but meters are deeply unuseful (for the same reasons you rarely see things measured in yards).

1/10th of a meter gets you a lot of the same usability as a foot measurement, but now adding centimeters onto that is more straightforward. A lot easier to calculate for measuring space for furniture, height, etc. . .

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#298

Post by fingerlocks » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:48 AM UTC

naikrovek wrote: post #292

Just_Smith wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the statement that metric is more useful for measurement largely ignores the fact that Imperial has stuck around so long because of its usefulness in trade work. It's definitely ONLY because of base12, but being base12 - imo - positions it far beyond metric for daily use. There's a reason why food items so commonly come by the dozen. Why would anyone prefer to build a house using a system that can't even accura…

1/3 can easily be measured in metric... it's just not a whole number. Far out I can invent a system that is unique to everything, and I can create my own abominable conversion ratios all I like. It doesn't make the system superior, it makes my system necessarily inferior. My TV is now 12 Settos in size. My surround system consumes 12 audots of power. My fridge holds 12 cubic fudo of room. There. Now everything is eas…

I challenge you to make a 1/3 cut in meter length wood using a metric ruler. Must be accurate to 1/128 inch (0.2mm), the tolerance used in fine woodworking.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#299

Post by XorNot » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:49 AM UTC

aylmao wrote: post #166

XorNot wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have noted, knowing the count of entities (note: not atoms, entities - i.e. it can also be molecules) in relation to actual mass is very useful for the physical sciences - at a molecular level the quantities of molecules and atoms interacting matter, not their masses - but mass is the unit I do experiments with. EDIT: A simple example would be if you were trying to make water - H2O, from hydrogen (H2) and o…

I think what the commenter is referring to is why use Avogadro's number instead of say, just Sextillions or Septillions.

I mean that really comes back to the "practical units" thing (and that chemists were the ones doing the work) - a kilogram of anything in chemistry is a huge amount, whereas a gram is about right to make "a lot" of something (in synthesis research people get excited about gram-scale synthetic yields).

So it's pretty much chosen to get integer-ish units with common things you work with like carbon - i.e. 1 mole of carbon of is ~12 grams.

Re: International System of Units overhauled in historic vote

#300

Post by Just_Smith » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:51 AM UTC

naikrovek wrote: post #287

blhack wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They're more ... human, maybe, in that a foot is about one human foot long, and that an inch is about one human thumb width, and how 0F feels "pretty cold" and 100F feels "pretty hot", and to me the charm of imperial units begins and ends right there. As far as we know, humans are the only thing in the universe that care about any of this stuff. A computer couldn't care less if you are using 1 foot or 0.3048 meters.…

Because adding 7/16ths of an inch to 7/8ths of a mile and getting an answer in inches isn't easy for a human. Adding 1cm to 982m and getting an answer in centimeters is dead easy for a human. THAT'S why human intuition about measurement doesn't mean a damn thing. Using metric means using the system optimized for humans. Period.

Your absolutism is a bit silly. I don't think the Imperial system is good for anything beyond construction or cooking, but there's a reason it excels those areas. And it's exactly because it's more usable by humans in certain contexts (like construction or cooking). 1/3 of a meter should not be an irrational number - how is that "optimized for humans"?

A scalable system that shares the divisibility of the foot would certainly trump both systems.