I Used to Be Homeless • Hacker News Board

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#311

Post by RobertRoberts » Fri, Nov 16, 2018, 11:27 AM UTC

kakarot wrote: post #306

RobertRoberts wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you live in San Franscico there are a ton of places you can get food: https://www.kqed.org/bayareabites/110356/where-homeless-peop... Where do you live? I will likely be able to find food for you online. If not from a website, there will be a church, if not a church a social network that will get you food. I've even seen people post on imgur.com and get sent pizza by people on the other side of the country. If you…

I've used plenty of those programs growing up in a poor family. It was never enough. And today, with budgets becoming ever tighter, it's less than ever. I work hard for the food on my table but it wouldn't be here and I wouldn't be here if I had never stolen food when I needed it most. But none of this has a damn thing to do with your straw man argument that I was saying being poor causes someone to commit crimes, an…

Every single time I asked for help I got something, even if I had to ask a few different people.

I am sorry you have experienced bad times. But have you considered that you could have asked for food instead of stealing it? Every restaurant I ever worked at gave food to people who asked. A number of other companies did as well. I have given people food that weren't even asking for it because I could see they needed it. (I have plenty of experience dumpster diving, which I chose over stealing)

You can justify breaking the law, and I wouldn't hold it against you for the sake for food, but it doesn't means it's the right thing to do. I begged on the streets and found charity every time.

The post is about being homeless, and your original comment was this:

>This is a complicated issue because the Drug War is inherently discriminatory, and asking for our government to enforce these laws will always lead to discriminatory practices. All of the other issues definitely need to be addressed, however.

But you seem to have derailed the conversation in your response, because the comment you replied to was this:

>I’m not saying punish homelessness, I’m saying enforce existing laws regardless of who the perps are.

I am discussing laws and the effects on poor people, I feel this is on topic, just like the original comment. And in my experience the law protects everyone from everyone, and the loudest claims of "discrimination" were from people who broke the law, just like you are doing now. And the people who don't break the law don't feel discriminated against.

The parent comment to this was how a homeless guy bent over backwards to fit in with society and did not break the law. Yet you seem to be the only one saying the poor/homeless are victims of the law and discriminated against in this entire thread.

If you change the topic, you should expect to be challenged.

Maybe consider the possibility there is a completely different way to live that protects you from what "seems" like discrimination, and that would be suffering a little to do what is right. Humble yourself and ask for help instead of blaming others and breaking the law.

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#312

Post by wpietri » Fri, Nov 16, 2018, 3:57 PM UTC

sciurus wrote: post #189

alistairSH wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, that doesn't surprise me. But how many of those 7000 homeless need that level of care? Half? 2/3? SF should at least be able to get the "easy" people off the street.

Maybe they already have?

They have definitely worked hard to do so. On BART I happened to start talking with somebody wearing a jacket from the Homeless Outreach Team. It's his job to talk people into getting the help they need and getting off the streets. The ones we talked about are definitely the difficult cases.

That doesn't surprise me at all. There's a homeless guy in my neighborhood I've been talking with at least 7 years. He has mentioned being born at the hospital 3 blocks from my place, and I'm sure he grew up in the neighborhood. He's polite, friendly, and very set in his ways. I suspect he has some sort of alcohol-induced anterograde amnesia. He has absolutely no interest in living in any sort of setting where he'd be constrained by others. From the way he talks about it, I expect there's some sort of history of abuse by authority figures.

I don't think it's impossible for him to get help. But I think it would have to include living in his neighborhood and I think it would need a lot of patient and intensive help from professionals. Otherwise he's just going to do what's familiar to him.

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#313

Post by jawnv6 » Fri, Nov 16, 2018, 8:23 PM UTC

RobertRoberts wrote: post #293

jawnv6 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, taking a budget for homeless and homeless assistance and dividing by point-in-time count is destined for asinine useless territory no matter what information I lack. 50% of the budget is housing assistance. 10% is eviction prevention. 20% is medical care. So just napkin math and 2/3rds of the 77k/y figure is for folks outside the point-in-time count. His "sentiment" is wholly based in steadfast ignorance o…

A charity group for the "police and fire fighters" calls me up and asks me to donate. I ask a simple question "how is donated money spent?" I ask them to send me info on this to research before I donate and I never get any. If we can't see how the money is spent (ie, audited by an actual CPA as the ultimate) then we are all guessing as to how it's spent and who ends up with the money in the end. You are guessing unle…

I'm sorry? I listed two specific charities that receive this money and your chosen example, wholly ignoring those two or anything approaching relevance to the topic, is "some rando scam call" you got? I really don't know what you want out of this conversation. So far beyond anything even masquerading as good-faith engagement.

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#314

Post by cannonedhamster » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 12:17 AM UTC

clairity wrote: post #223

smileysteve wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of a fine for doing something illegal is supposed to be corrective. If a person can not pay the fine, if they're not further inconvenienced by being arrested and sent to hours until jail; the effective corrective action is being applied to the judge, police; They can arrest the same homeless, mentally ill, drug addicted person each day; or put them in prison where they don't belong -- or they can fine/arr…

> "The purpose of a fine for doing something illegal is supposed to be corrective." that's almost certainly not true. a fine is primarily a deterrent, and failing that, is punitive. it's not corrective (or restorative), because it doesn't "correct" anything. an example of corrective action is a burglar being required to return/replace stolen items.

Punitive actions are meant to correct the aberrant behavior by acting as a deterrent. The end goal of anything in criminal justice is to make the victim whole, and if that is not possible to deter future crimes of that type. This is why there are limits to how cruel we are allowed to be, as cruelty for vengeance sake is no more effective than is securing an individual who is very likely to continue their behavior.

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#315

Post by jl2718 » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 10:41 AM UTC

pizzazzaro wrote: post #309

jl2718 wrote: post #129

I was homeless in Silicon Valley many years ago. There were a lot of ‘us’. We stayed hidden in the woods, bathed often, and dressed impeccably in public. Some had jobs. Some were grad students. Several couples. There were no drugs, alcohol, beggars, or thieves out there. $5/day was enough. It was hard physically, but very spiritual, financially free, and altogether one of the best times of my life. Today it’s too dan…

That sounds like a nice hippy colony you had there. My experience was different. Winter kills people. Summer kills people. Have your shelter from the elements planned, or you wont make it. The Homeless Shelter doesnt have the resources to help you all day. And they only let everyone sleep on the floor for the coldest 3 months of the year, when Christmas donations make feeding everyone ONE meal possible. When that run…

Yes, those things existed. I saw very little of them, and mostly avoided them. That wasn't easy either. I had some special training in survival and evasion, and it wasn't that serious, but it was the mindset I was coming from. I did a lot of walking, all day, all night, carrying everything with me, and very little sleeping. Sometimes I'd try to memorize a song, and in harder times I'd just repeat to myself, "I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight". During the summer it was bougie homeless. The numbers dwindled as the weather got cold until I was alone for all I knew, and the cold was brutal, especially up in the hills when everything I had was wet from the rain. The first time I got really sick, I was freezing and miserable, and I gave up; I walked out and headed into town to catch the bus to a shelter. I got on Hotel 22 at about 2am, and realized pretty quickly that I was in a bad place, and I was headed to a worse place. The driver made it clear: the dude in a t-shirt shaking wild-eyed and moaning was going to the VA shelter, and everybody else was there to avoid it. I went back into the hills with a bit more acceptance of fate in my mind. I'm not sure that it would be as easy to avoid today. I've watched it get worse, thankfully not up close. "There but for the grace of god go I". I whisper that to myself every day, and conversely, no matter how much I succeed and achieve and prove myself professionally, I'll never feel like I truly deserve anything better than "cold nasty brutish and short". That may be what I liked about it most of all, a feeling like I didn't owe anybody anything, like there was nothing to feel guilty for. That's a special kind of freedom.

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#316

Post by _3wrh » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

technobabble wrote: post #134

nyghtly wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say that they won't accept help, what do you mean? What did you try to offer that they didn't accept?

I can't speek for the parent poster. I don't feel comfortable giving money, so instead I offer to get them something at a local restaraunt, or try to give them some of my food if I have it on me. In some (but not all) circumstances, I've been told to "f!ck off" and "suck a c!ck" becaue they want money, presumably for drugs/alcohol/etc. Again this is my experience. Your mileage may vary.

Here's the thing: 1. Homeless people are screwed by society in almost every possible way. 2. There are a million ways to get free food when you're homeless. I.e. hunger is a solved problem for most homeless people.

With this context in mind, you can see how offering someone your half-eaten leftovers, or forcing them to go on some journey with you in exchange for a basic meal, is not only unhelpful--it's downright insulting.

If you don't feel comfortable giving them money, or engaging in an honest conversation, then just say sorry and walk away.

And if you feel like you want to help homeless people without giving them money, then give the money to an organization instead.

The bottom line: don't expect homeless people to be grateful to you, especially if what you're offering is next to nothing for them.

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#317

Post by _3wrh » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 3:14 PM UTC

TallGuyShort wrote: post #219

nyghtly wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say that they won't accept help, what do you mean? What did you try to offer that they didn't accept?

In terms of not accepting help, I've had people refuse to be put in a motel for the night or placed with someone who had a room for rent. That was primarily a case of pride as they've usually been very newly homeless, but they end up sleeping somewhere unsafe and / or illegal, so I'd love to be able to break past that mental barrier for them. In terms of being mad about help given, the strongest example in my memory…

I've distributed hygiene kits such as those in a shelter environment and most people were very grateful for them. It probably depends on the environment you're in. But the bottom line is if something isn't well received then don't offer it, or try to offer it in a different context.

If someone was really dedicated, then they would sit down with one or two people from the homeless community and ask them what they want and how they want to receive it.

Most of us aren't willing to do this, and that's fine. I think the problem is that we expect it to be easy to please a homeless person because they "have nothing." But in reality they are complex human beings like everyone else and they don't want to be treated as lesser.

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#318

Post by nyghtly » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 3:17 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #102

nyghtly wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"How should we spend it?" Give people money. Unfortunately, you could only do this effectively on a national level. In San Francisco, $40k isn't even enough to cover cost of living. You could also give people housing vouchers, but you need to have available affordable housing for that to work. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/how-expensive-is-san-francis...

Giving people money can work well for those who are just down on their luck, but it's pointless and counterproductive for those who are addicted and/or seriously mentally ill. Those people need active interventions, not passive hand outs.

Then offer them treatment as well, but the fact remains that being poor with a substance use disorder is worse than having money with a substance use disorder.

Let me ask you this: if someone doesn't have money, how do they get drugs?

Refusing help to people with substance use disorder is a form of toxic moralizing that does nothing to help them.

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#319

Post by RobertRoberts » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 3:45 PM UTC

jawnv6 wrote: post #313

RobertRoberts wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A charity group for the "police and fire fighters" calls me up and asks me to donate. I ask a simple question "how is donated money spent?" I ask them to send me info on this to research before I donate and I never get any. If we can't see how the money is spent (ie, audited by an actual CPA as the ultimate) then we are all guessing as to how it's spent and who ends up with the money in the end. You are guessing unle…

I'm sorry? I listed two specific charities that receive this money and your chosen example, wholly ignoring those two or anything approaching relevance to the topic, is "some rando scam call" you got? I really don't know what you want out of this conversation. So far beyond anything even masquerading as good-faith engagement.

I have had some experience researching charities. Just because you listed two doesn't mean they are good or spend their money ethically. (most do not)

The fact that you think they are good implies that either you researched them and have proof, or you have blind faith in them.

If you researched them, can you provide your sources? If you have not, why do you think they are ethical with their spending practices?

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#320

Post by jawnv6 » Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 10:14 PM UTC

RobertRoberts wrote: post #319

jawnv6 wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry? I listed two specific charities that receive this money and your chosen example, wholly ignoring those two or anything approaching relevance to the topic, is "some rando scam call" you got? I really don't know what you want out of this conversation. So far beyond anything even masquerading as good-faith engagement.

I have had some experience researching charities. Just because you listed two doesn't mean they are good or spend their money ethically. (most do not) The fact that you think they are good implies that either you researched them and have proof, or you have blind faith in them. If you researched them, can you provide your sources? If you have not, why do you think they are ethical with their spending practices?

I brought them up. You hand waved about unrelated scams from unrelated persons. The sheer gall to act like you've been engaging in good faith is remarkable.

Do folks normally volunteer for your made up research quests after this much acrimony and baseless conjecture? Ridiculous.