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Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

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Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#71
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually mean the even more general usage. The English vocabulary of objects is hierarchical: he, she, it are the major categories. Male and female humans fall under the first two. All other objects under "it". Not long ago even children were "it"s, I believe. Not certain about English, but certainly in some other languages. That exerts a lot of ideology on communication, which has far-reaching effects. Simple exam…

> Male and female humans fall under the first two. No. Male and female anything fall under the first two. For example, when we talk about our dog, we say "He's a good boy". People use he or she for animals too. > Not long ago even children were "it"s, I believe. We use it for 'gender neutral'. For example, when my sister was pregnant, everyone used 'it' to refer to the baby. "I can't wait for it to be born". "I wonde…

At least we can agree on the point that gender is important for humans and other sexually reproducing organisms.

Whether the language used to describe this idea is important remains to be seen. Saphir-Worth's linguistic hypothesis has not been proven and is probably false as the afte many ways to have a reasonably complete map of the world in many languages.

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#72
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its use when referring to animals. Many languages have features of grammatical gender in general which has a specially humanizing effect on discussions about animals, even when their biological gender has nothing to do with it.

Many languages also gender chairs. Does this humanize them?

I'd be on the side of "no". It does not even animize them.

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't that the main loop hole of who was born first? chicken or the egg?

Egg was first by millions of years.

Do you mean "cell" which is neither egg (which is a specific specialized kind of a cell - reproductive) nor chicken?

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#74

https://youtu.be/JdpspllWI2o UK ban on efforts to save Orangutans in return for an arms deal is perhaps worth a mention here.

Beautiful ad.

It made me think how many strange beautiful worlds humans may have destroyed already.

It's a bit ironic that we then create fiction and movies, say like Lord of the Rings, that invent all sorts of fantastical lost worlds, when we have all sorts of them right now, and we don't bother to preserve them.

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Singular "they" has been around for decades or more. Funny you mention it, I only learned about it yesterday on the dead cells subreddit.

I have a hard time believing that you never used or heard of English's ubiquitous gender-neutral pronoun. You certainly weren't using "it" to refer to humans. I'm actually dumbfounded that someone would make this claim. It's almost as unbelievable as someone saying they've heard "ze" more than they've heard "they" in real life. I don't believe it for a second and think it's more like when my girlfriend recently admit…

> I have a hard time believing that you never used or heard of English's ubiquitous gender-neutral pronoun.

Does it help my case if I confess English isn't my first language :D ?

> You use "they" all the time in your comment history for genderless entities like Apple and TechCrunch (didn't want to scroll further). Some could say this is the plural pronoun, like when people pluralize "Radiohead {is->are} a good band", but since you do use "is" in these contexts, you are indeed quite familiar with the singular "they".

I do indeed use `they` in the plural form when referring to genderless entities. When I write (or say) 'They are a tech company' I am picturing a group of people and this picture stands up for the Apple concept in that context. So far it has always been the meaning behind my usage of the word. And more problematic is the fact that I understand the usage of `they` to always be the plural pronoun even when it's not appropriate.

From your example: `Radiohead is a good band` means to me we are talking of the band in general and `Radiohead are a good band` means we are talking about the people in it. Now it gets funnier when talking about the Rolling Stones.

> And if you consume any English at all (as you certainly do on HN and Reddit), you see it daily.

> you are indeed quite familiar with the singular "they"

I'd chalk it up to `monkey see, monkey do`. I rarely see the words `they is` but those examples:

"I swear more when I'm talking to a boy, because I'm not afraid of shocking them". From an interview.[1] "No mother should be forced to testify against their child".

I understand the first example (`them`) to be about boys in general, not about the `a boy` from the first part of the sentence. Now the second one I would assume `their` is used because a mother can have more than one child. But I would equally find normal to use the singular `her child` and think it means the same but with a more personal nuance (the woman we are talking about maybe ? not women in general).

Here's the Reddit discussion I mentioned, I certainly couldn't have started it to make a point in this HN thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/deadcells/comments/9x3f3z/who_is_th... and https://www.reddit.com/r/deadcells/comments/9x3f3z/who_is_th...

After reading that I hit up Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they#Prescription_of_... and that example "Somebody left their umbrella in the office. Would they please collect it?" got me ashamed because I had to admit to myself that until now I understood that kind of statement to be derogatory. It also made a lot of things much clearer.

> It might seem like I'm making a big deal about nothing, but more and more often I'm starting to see a certain reality revisionism that makes me feel like I'm being gaslit by the people around me.

Well, I certainly can understand that. But I assure you there are no deceiving intentions on my end. `Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.`

People learn language in an organic way. Misinterpretations happens all the time (see that recent Trump-Macron army thing).

It was certainly eye-opening for me to read that yesterday and funny to see this topic mentioned again today.

I have another example, I recently learned that `to couch travel` means to travel in a bus. I talked about it with a friend of mine and he clearly remembers learning that in our English lesson 20 years ago (we were in the same class).

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#76
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the general call for skepticism against the idea that displaced reference is so unique in the animal kingdom. Where I do not agree, is the implicit argument of "if a bee can do it then it's trivial". Within the animal kingdom, the sophistication of the honey bee's waggle dance, with predicates and combinable to a large number of phrases, is rare. The only other major example I can think of are primate ca…

Ok, I'll ask - is a bird or a honey bee more intelligent? Before you answer, let me just say a few things... Pound-for-pound honey bees are indeed impressive. I actually didn't know all of those things, so thank you for sharing. Since I am no bee expert, I can only offer general principles. But yeah, that's a lot of fancy behaviors crammed into just ~1 million neurons; great optimization. However, with so few neurons…

> is a bird or a honey bee more intelligent?

That's a broader question than chicken or bee. A crow is definitely more intelligent than a bee.

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Singular "they" has been around for decades or more. Funny you mention it, I only learned about it yesterday on the dead cells subreddit.

Really? What word would you use to describe a baby (or androgynous looking person) whose gender you weren't sure of?

Most likely I would try to dance around it or find a different way to convey my thoughts (like for any other thing I couldn't express clearly) or use `it` because in my first language (french) `il` is the default pronoun for a baby (`il a faim ton bébé ?`) while thinking something's off and ask the person to forgive my blunder.

I would certainly not used something like `is they a boy ?` though.

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#78
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the ones making nests near urban areas were incorporating a lot of colorful man-made trinkets they scavenged from the big city to woo the ladies (which I think suggests some level of flexibility). If they avoided man-made objects, that would indicate that they're smart enough to tell the difference. They're just grabbing any object they find that stands out. If anything, that implies less intelligence.

> If they avoided man-made objects, that would indicate that they're smart enough to tell the difference... If anything, that implies less intelligence. Are you assuming there's something "wrong" with using the colorful man-made trinkets?

Cultural appropriation?

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#79
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a relievingly admirable way to look at these creatures. I find the English "it" an exceptionally tiring feature. There are so many prejudices and world views embded in our languages. We call ourselves hackers, but where's a hackaday.io or hackathons for human language, the ubiquitous communication medium?

With 6500 languages to choose from, I'm sure there are more than a few incorporating a world-view which aligns with yours. Rather than create something entirely new, wouldn't it be more reasonable to delve into what is already on offer?

Upvoted for your excellent XKCD reference.

https://xkcd.com/927/

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#80
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the general call for skepticism against the idea that displaced reference is so unique in the animal kingdom. Where I do not agree, is the implicit argument of "if a bee can do it then it's trivial". Within the animal kingdom, the sophistication of the honey bee's waggle dance, with predicates and combinable to a large number of phrases, is rare. The only other major example I can think of are primate ca…

Ok, I'll ask - is a bird or a honey bee more intelligent? Before you answer, let me just say a few things... Pound-for-pound honey bees are indeed impressive. I actually didn't know all of those things, so thank you for sharing. Since I am no bee expert, I can only offer general principles. But yeah, that's a lot of fancy behaviors crammed into just ~1 million neurons; great optimization. However, with so few neurons…

Indeed, I completely agree that some birds are very intelligent, managing to pack quite a lot of punch in such a small package. Parrots, corvids, even pigeons are examples of such intelligent birds. This is why I was careful to select Chickens as the example that I did.

Near the 48th second of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exsrX6qsKkA, you can see the bumble bee actually hesitating to work out which option will yield a reward for the least amount of effort. That kind of laziness is an excellent display of flexibility and intelligence.

It's also interesting that you mention colony collapse. If as is likely, neonicotinoids play a significant role in colony collapse then the bee's sensitivity to disruptions in acetlycholine pathways is an argument for their relying heavily on cognition for foraging and navigation. But yeah, I'm not saying bees are just as intelligent as primates, corvids or parrots; just that they too are capable of quite unique sophisticated behaviors and learning.

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