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Disneyland with the Death Penalty

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Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#31
post #10
post #2

The author hits it spot on about Singapore. It would probably have more in common with Apple than IBM--efficiently run, capitalist (to an extent), but is more or less a one-party system, as is common in East Asia (with the exception of Australia). Singapore is perhaps the best example of the so-called Apple 1984-ad state of information purity directives. OK, maybe that is an exaggeration. It is more likely the result…

Comments like this are what make a binary voting system inefficient. Two thirds of your comment is spot on and pretty much exactly what I came here to say. When I initially viewed your comment it had been down voted and I debated whether or not I should vote it back up. But there are some glaring unfairnesses in your assessment that make me take pause. Suggesting that Hong Kong is the freest state in the region is ki…

>a key reason there weren't any Walmart types in Hong Kong was because it was more profitable to the Triads to keep all the mom and pop shops in business than to work with larger corporations

You're claiming Hong Kong isn't start up friendly because it doesn't support devastating monopolies like Walmart [1]??? Are you seriously telling me that if you went to a country where everywhere you looked you saw people in business for themselves you would find that less entrepreneur friendly than a place that just had one Walmart and nothing else? Monopoly is the exact opposite of free market.

[1] http://www.walmarteffectbook.com/

It never ceases to shock me when apparent free market proponents hold up Walmart as an example to aspire to. Are people not aware how much special treatment from the government Walmart gets? They do produce innovations here and there, but with the amount of money flowing through their fingers they bloody well should.

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#32
post #2

The author hits it spot on about Singapore. It would probably have more in common with Apple than IBM--efficiently run, capitalist (to an extent), but is more or less a one-party system, as is common in East Asia (with the exception of Australia). Singapore is perhaps the best example of the so-called Apple 1984-ad state of information purity directives. OK, maybe that is an exaggeration. It is more likely the result…

> In fact, I was surprised that all phones in Hong Kong are sold unlocked because government regulations require freedom of phone service. Which is where I bought my iPhone. (and it should come as no surprise that Singapore sells them locked.) I would venture to say that [Hong Kong] is poster child of libertarianism To clear up a common misconception I see (and I have no understanding of where this misunderstanding c…

I wouldn't say it's the exact opposite, though it's not libertarian. It does fit into a Hayekian view that government intervention is justified to promote free markets and competition. That's not quite libertarianism, but Hayek fans are often found near libertarian circles.

It seems to be somewhat an ends/means disagreement. Many branches of libertarianism argue that government interference with private contracts is inherently wrong. Other pro-capitalist views (Hayek among them), though, focus more on the outcomes, arguing that capitalism is good because competitive markets with decentralized decision-making mediated by price signals produce the best outcomes for humanity. Those holding the latter view don't have as blanket an opposition to all kinds of regulation, but would allow some kinds of regulation that are narrowly tailored towards promoting competitive markets. Adam Smith is probably the earliest precursor of that view; for example, he opposed most regulation, but supported requiring employers to pay wages in silver, because he thought on balance, prohibiting employers from paying their employees in IOUs promoted a functioning market economy, so the interference with the employer's absolute freedom to negotiate payment methods with their employees was justified. Hayek outlined a number of kinds of intervention he felt justified as well.

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#33
(Disclaimer: I was born in Singapore, educated in the US and lived in the SF bay area for a while. Among other things, the overseas experience made me question a lot of things about Singapore and the US)

I beg to differ with the article and wonder if I'm a product of the system as the author described or that maybe he just hasn't lived long enough in Singapore. A lot of the content is outdated, in my opinion.

May I respectfully give a personal perspective on some remarks that I feel are rather over-the-top. Please let me know if you agree/disagree:

> A lot of people ask me what I think a free China would look like. I said possibly very similar to Singapore, and the truth is, there is a lot in common with China.

To be frank, I think that could not be further from the truth. As a Singaporean Chinese, I find my way of thinking very different from that of friends and even relatives from mainland China. It has been reported that Deng Xiaoping and other senior members of the Chinese government looked to Singapore for ideas on economic, social and political reform back then, but I think how policies were eventually implemented were very different.

> Don't forget to remember the simple guideline that epitomizes Singapore's reaction to lawbreaking on the back of the disembarkation card on the plane in bold, all-caps red letters: "Welcome to Singapore. Death to drug traffickers under Singapore law."

Like what someone else said, on paper, Singapore looks horrible but in reality, it's just like any other country. I chew gum on the streets, I could leave trash outside of bins if I wanted to, sometimes I forget to flush after using a public restroom... (silly examples but tongue firmly in cheek) all without penalty.

On one hand, some laws like the penalties for drug-trafficking seem draconian by comparison. On the other, I wonder if it is because of these strict laws that one is able to wander around alone almost anywhere at night without fear. Or simply, if you don't want to be arrested, don't bring illegal drugs into the country...

> Also don't get stuck there with out health cover/travel insurance or you will regret it, its not malaysia/thailand.

You're right that on average Malaysia/Thailand heathcare costs are probably cheaper. Currently I have no health insurance and pay less than US$30 every time I go into a public health clinic for a cold, an annual physical or a dental checkup. A lot of people from the region actually come to Singapore for good, reliable health-care, leading to a medical tourism boom in recent decades.

> Challenge the Lee dictatorship and comeback and tell us how little they care.

Well, I question government policies openly in public, and so far, I haven't found myself behind bars. Maybe I'm just not important enough ;)

Speaking about the government... I wish for more transparency on how the government invests money from its sovereign funds(i.e. taxpayers' money). I hope silly election tactics like redrawing of electoral boundaries won't be used anymore, etc.

But I do want the efficient, corruption-free(at certain levels, it still helps if one has the right connections though) bureaucratic processes to continue to flourish.

As a startup founder, I found it a breeze to get incorporated(2 days), rent an office and complete the administrative-type tasks. However, innovation certainly seems to be a problem. The jump from years of mainly being indoctrinated with "trust the government to do the right thing", "study hard and be a good worker" to "come up with your own ideas!", "be unique!"(which ironically, is being promoted by the government!) will take some time, I guess.

Government-supported investment funds may abound, but I get the impression that those guys are terribly risk-averse and want to back certain winners.

> Singapore Airlines is notorious for discriminating age, sex, and lookgs for its flight attendants.

I'm not a fan of Singapore Airlines, but one is certainly free to sue them for discriminatory practices.

Pardon my long, at times sarcastic response. I guess I get somewhat annoyed when binary statements are repeatedly made based on things that I think have obvious shades of gray.

Anyway, come to Singapore and let's have coffee sometime; I'd love to meet up with fellow HNers and chat about this funny island country of mine!

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#34
post #7
post #3

Singapore is not that bad. If you stay in the touristy areas, yeah, everything is corporate and efficient seeming. You can go from the airport to your hotel without ever going outside. If you go to where people that live in Singapore go, though, it's just like any other city. Okay, not as cool as Manhattan or Tokyo or Hong Kong or London, but still pretty normal. As for the death penalty, yeah, they have it. Singapor…

Challenge the Lee dictatorship and comeback and tell us how little they care. Yes they do care and yes they will execute you https://duckduckgo.com/?q=singapore+execute+australian even if you are not a king pin, just some dumb kid. Also don't get stuck there with out health cover/travel insurance or you will regret it, its not malaysia/thailand.

I can't say much about death punishment but..

"He said he was carrying them to Australia for a Sydney syndicate to help his brother Khoa, a former heroin addict, pay A$30,000 ($31,460) in debts."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a...

See how drugs forces people to do "dumb" things?

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#35
post #33

(Disclaimer: I was born in Singapore, educated in the US and lived in the SF bay area for a while. Among other things, the overseas experience made me question a lot of things about Singapore and the US) I beg to differ with the article and wonder if I'm a product of the system as the author described or that maybe he just hasn't lived long enough in Singapore. A lot of the content is outdated, in my opinion. May I r…

> Singapore Airlines is notorious for discriminating age, sex, and looks for its flight attendants.

That's kind of funny considering the opening of the article was written from the perspective of Hollywood, which isn't exactly known to foster the careers of talented but less attractive actresses, let alone ones past their 30's.

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, I was surprised that all phones in Hong Kong are sold unlocked because government regulations require freedom of phone service. Which is where I bought my iPhone. (and it should come as no surprise that Singapore sells them locked.) I would venture to say that [Hong Kong] is poster child of libertarianism To clear up a common misconception I see (and I have no understanding of where this misunderstanding c…

I wouldn't say it's the exact opposite, though it's not libertarian. It does fit into a Hayekian view that government intervention is justified to promote free markets and competition. That's not quite libertarianism, but Hayek fans are often found near libertarian circles. It seems to be somewhat an ends/means disagreement. Many branches of libertarianism argue that government interference with private contracts is…

I mean, the disagreement certainly isn't over if certain government interventions can improve market efficiency, since they certainly can. But I disagree that the disagreement is really as principled as you say, over if the ends justify the means. The disagreement is most likely over if you can somehow give a government body a few powers (like those Hayek outlines) without ending up with something like we have now.

Great post.

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#37
I am a Singaporean, born and raised here. Just starting out on my own after 4 plus years of enterprise work.

The one book which my secondary school teacher recommended and put how Singapore has developed into perspective is 'The Prince'. Although I would say my country is making some of the mistakes the book warned about.

With regards to freedom of speech, Singapore operates based on the principle of OB markers. Many factors have contributed to the existence of these markers, such as the turbulent times that occurred when the countries around the region were gaining independence, the demographics of the surrounding countries ...

Freedom of speech is great when each of us have the wisdom to know when to exercise it or the consequences of a misplaced whisper or misguided rant may not be catastrophic. The fear of certain things being said is from the fear of what the unforeseen consequences might be.

If anyone has questions about Singapore, or interested in starting out here, do contact me.

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#38
post #2

The author hits it spot on about Singapore. It would probably have more in common with Apple than IBM--efficiently run, capitalist (to an extent), but is more or less a one-party system, as is common in East Asia (with the exception of Australia). Singapore is perhaps the best example of the so-called Apple 1984-ad state of information purity directives. OK, maybe that is an exaggeration. It is more likely the result…

"I would venture to say that it is poster child of libertarianism."

Yes, a few wealthy families own half the businesses and property, and can survey their empires from the comfort of their mansions on Victoria peak. Meanwhile, down in Wan Chai Filipina maids moonlight as sex workers, offering handjobs to stressed-out bankers to make ends meet, and over in Tai Kok Tsui elderly Chinese immigrants live in cages. Capitalism in action...

Still, it's a cool place, and to be fair the large middle class population can enjoy a high quality of life. I haven't been to Singapore, but it sounds like HK is a fair bit dirtier and more chaotic, and also more alive. On the other hand, I've found that even here there's a lack of 'alternative' culture, even less than in the mainland. Beijing has a small but thriving local music scene, whereas HK's feels almost non-existent. Feels like people here care more about shopping and status symbols than anything else.

It'd be interesting to read what William Gibson would have to say about Hong Kong. Chungking Mansions in TST felt like something out of a cyberpunk novel, all Nigerian drug dealers hanging out in Indian curry houses next to stalls selling Chinese knock-off iPads.

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#39
I'm a fan of Gibson, but this isn't really an accurate description of Singapore. Singapore's overwhelmingly the most functional and prosperous place in Southeast Asia, by any metric or measure. People who love politics don't like Singapore, because Singaporean politics are boring. One group is in charge, they do a pretty good job, and everyone likes them. But outside of politics and drugs, you can do pretty much whatever you want in Singapore, you're really safe, and the culture's as vibrant as anywhere else. There's a nice mix of Chinese, Malay, Thai, Indian, American, Japanese, and other kinds of experiences to be had in music, food, clothing, and basically whatever else. Good art, technology, commerce, inventing, education.

After traveling a lot around the region, I can't wrap my mind around articles like these. The second most functional country in SE Asia is Thailand, and it's way more dangerous and less functional than Singapore. Where else? Vietnam? Cambodia? Malaysia? Laos?

I've been to all those places except Laos, and Singapore is nicer in pretty much every way. Don't let the article turn you off from visiting if you get a chance. It's a nice country, with friendly people, and plenty of things to do. If you went, you'd probably enjoy it.

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, I was surprised that all phones in Hong Kong are sold unlocked because government regulations require freedom of phone service. Which is where I bought my iPhone. (and it should come as no surprise that Singapore sells them locked.) I would venture to say that [Hong Kong] is poster child of libertarianism To clear up a common misconception I see (and I have no understanding of where this misunderstanding c…

>I would venture to say that [Hong Kong] is poster child of libertarianism This is the problem with the post. Libertarianism does not lead to market freedom. It does for a very short time until someone becomes dominant and uses that dominance to buy or force out everyone else. The US is closer to libertarian ideas, which is why it has a less free market than other places that understand that capitalism can't work wit…

I think you may be confusing libertarianism and anarchy.
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