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‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#421

Post by laurencerowe »

I was excited to explore the possibility of a job at Facebook last week. An opportunity to work with some of the smartest (and nicest!) engineers in the world on a problem space I've been intellectually invested in for several years. This latest revelation crosses a line for me.

> But this Soros thing is different. This is no passive failure. It’s a malevolent action taken against groups who criticize Facebook for things that Facebook admits it has failed at. It takes advantage of and contributes to the most poisonous aspects of our public discourse. - https://twitter.com/juliacarriew/status/1062932740729856000

Facebook's response is utterly confused. When the unseemly smears their PR/lobbying firm propagated come to light they quickly sack them but also attempt to defend the smear. Which is it?

> Lastly we wanted to address the issue of Definers, who we ended our contract with last night. The New York Times is wrong to suggest that we ever asked Definers to pay for or write articles on Facebook’s behalf – or to spread misinformation. Our relationship with Definers was well known by the media – not least because they have on several occasions sent out invitations to hundreds of journalists about important press calls on our behalf. Definers did encourage members of the press to look into the funding of “Freedom from Facebook,” an anti-Facebook organization. The intention was to demonstrate that it was not simply a spontaneous grassroots campaign, as it claimed, but supported by a well-known critic of our company. To suggest that this was an anti-Semitic attack is reprehensible and untrue. - https://newsroom.fb.com/news/2018/11/new-york-times-update/

It clearly plays into the modern anti-Semitic conspiracy theories being pushed in right wing media and Republican campaign ads.

Someone senior at Facebook needs to take responsibility for this.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#422

Post by gaius »

spike021 wrote: post #181
wesleytodd wrote: post #46

Personal anecdote: I was contacted by a facebook recruiter a few years ago. I started the process and also started thinking about if I would like working there. I realized that I disagree strongly with the product, its effects on society, culture and politics. But more importantly I realized I hadn't used the product in like 3 years. I just said no thanks before even finishing the "take home" exercise. At the time I…

>But more importantly I realized I hadn't used the product in like 3 years. How does this matter? Most people don't personally use the products they work on. If someone works on software in flight computers (I don't know the proper term), in most cases I doubt they're pilots actively using said software. I certainly don't personally use the products I work on for my job. A job is a job. Sure some people find work "do…

How does this matter? Most people don't personally use the products they work on.

I think Phillip Morris probably would be surprised if a candidate quit 3 years ago but still wanted to work there...

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#423

Post by astrange »

aetherson wrote: post #337
gpm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory is that pay and working conditions at Facebook are as good as they are precisely because of people feeling like this. They are having to pay a premium to attract engineers as a result of the moral opposition.

FB paid well above market long before the general opinion of it was anything worse than, "God, people sure do waste a lot of time on Facebook."

FB broke the anti-poaching agreement between all other Silicon Valley companies and at one point made Google give everyone a 20% raise.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#424

Post by hanspeter »

neves wrote: post #374
eksemplar wrote: post #117

I get that we don’t like Facebook, but isn’t this a bit much? Are they worse than google or amazon? What about people who work for Coca-Cola? What about the people who make mobile games and loot boxes for Blizzard? Where is it ethical to work? I mean, I’ve been in public service for decades, so I know a thing or two about choosing idealism over money, but that’s not for everyone and I frankly don’t think Facebook is…

Yes, it is a lot worse. I live in Brazil, where a Facebook company, was used in a plot to spread fake news to elect a far right president. They are really against doing anything that may affect their bottom line. No other tech company is this bad.

Can you elaborate? What was Facebook's role in this? Do you blame Facebook for not filtering out any potential fake news or did they take an active position in the matter?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#425

Post by [deleted] »

cortesoft wrote: post #388
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mission statements are always bullshit. The reason being that I have never seen a case where, when push comes to shove, that a company would forgo needed revenue if it contradicted their mission statement. Instead what happens is that leaders go through mental gymnastics trying to show "No, it still aligns with our mission statement, you just have to twist the meaning of the words in the mission statement beyond any…

I am not going to argue that mission statements are not bullshit, but I don't think your argument is persuasive. Just because you will compromise some values when push comes to shove doesn't mean those values were completely meaningless... it just means they were not as important as another value that they came into conflict with. For example, I value pacifism. I think non-violence is almost always the right choice,…

[deleted]

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#426

Post by vehementi »

eksemplar wrote: post #117

I get that we don’t like Facebook, but isn’t this a bit much? Are they worse than google or amazon? What about people who work for Coca-Cola? What about the people who make mobile games and loot boxes for Blizzard? Where is it ethical to work? I mean, I’ve been in public service for decades, so I know a thing or two about choosing idealism over money, but that’s not for everyone and I frankly don’t think Facebook is…

> Where is it ethical to work?

Working at Netflix, Apple, Salesforce, Oracle, or Microsoft seems to be a category more ethical than Facebook/Google, wouldn't you say? Isn't that a good place to start? At worst, those companies are mainly just screwing over other companies (though depends on if Netflix is up to something behind the scenes)

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#427

Post by laurencerowe »

laurencerowe wrote: post #421

I was excited to explore the possibility of a job at Facebook last week. An opportunity to work with some of the smartest (and nicest!) engineers in the world on a problem space I've been intellectually invested in for several years. This latest revelation crosses a line for me. > But this Soros thing is different. This is no passive failure. It’s a malevolent action taken against groups who criticize Facebook for th…

Good to see Facebook's message is evolving in Sheryl Sandberg's post. No longer attempting to defend the indefensible. (Edit, on a second closer reading it does still attempt to defend it, just in more finessed language. It does not acknowledge that it was smearing critics with an antisemitic trope.)

> I also want to address the issue that has been raised about a PR firm, Definers. We’re no longer working with them but at the time, they were trying to show that some of the activity against us that appeared to be grassroots also had major organizations behind them. I did not know we hired them or about the work they were doing, but I should have. I have great respect for George Soros – and the anti-Semitic conspiracy theories against him are abhorrent. - https://www.facebook.com/sheryl/posts/10160967443525177

Who was responsible for hiring them?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#428

Post by gaius »

sjg007 wrote: post #211
mehrdadn wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s a bit like blaming the scientists of the Manhattan Project for dropping the atomic bomb. I'm the last one to defend Facebook here but I don't see how designing an atomic bomb is comparable to working for Facebook, regardless of what you think about the morality of each.

Facebook basically fueled a genocide in Myanmar and extreme violence in other places. The whole fake news thing we went through in 2016 was pioneered by Russia to annex Ukraine. Facebook was warned about these behaviors repeatedly by government and watchdog organizations and apparently did nothing to curtail them. So Facebook is this great tool to stay connected to people but at the same time it has been hijacked to…

Facebook basically fueled a genocide in Myanmar and extreme violence in other places.

If we widen the definition slightly to include other social media firms then the most recent phase of chaos in the Middle East (post "Arab Spring") and the rise of ISIS can directly be blamed on FB and Twitter.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#429

Post by Majestic121 »

halfdan wrote: post #414
ryanbrunner wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically I think Facebook is one example that (at least in the early days) had values that actually had teeth. "Move fast and break things" isn't just a feel-good truism like most values that companies come up with are. It's something that at least some people are going to disagree with, and it's something that can actually be instructive when making a decision at that company. I don't personally agree with it, but…

"Move fast and break things" sounds more like humanity's approach to global warming than a wise and sustainable business approach.

That's the point of the parent : at least the motto has a point and mean something that you can debate, a nice change from marketing meaningless bullshit like "Imagination at work" (GE) or "Energy lives here" (Exxon)

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#430

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

kansface wrote: post #366
bsanr wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Pay is determined chiefly by supply and demand in the labor market. Jobs that are more fun pay less because the supply of workers is higher. Fairness is literally not part of this equation." I think the implication is that society and technology have advanced to the point where, ostensibly, work that can't be automated away should be work that would demand a living wage. If it's tenable for my job to still exist, it…

> I think it's funny that you mention $50/hr for delivering papers as if we should be aghast at the mere thought. $50/hr for delivering papers would most likely cause the prompt and total collapse of the local economy. If you think otherwise, why stop at merely $50/hour? I'm only aghast that the proposed cure is actually much worse than the disease! > But as a society, at some point it would be prudent to look around…

So it's okay for banks and large corporations to collapse the national economy, but not for paperboys to collapse the local economy?

Can you expand further on the logical basis for that belief?

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