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Disneyland with the Death Penalty

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Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#21

Post by ugh »

mmaro wrote: post #6

This is a famous article from 1993 , notable enough to have its own Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_Death_Penal... What I find interesting is that this piece doesn't include the words "crime" or "murder". There are what, one or two (solved) murders per year on an island of 5 million people? Freedom includes bad things not happening to you. Other freedoms you can enjoy (as far as I kn…

Singapore had a homicide rate of 0.39 per 100,000 in 2006 (that’s more than one or two), Japan had a homicide rate of 0.44 per 100,000 in the same year. European nations like Germany (0.98) or the Netherlands (0.78) are not far off. The USA have the highest homicide rate of all highly developed nations with 5.7 per 100,000 in 2006. (I’m too lazy to look at the statistics right now but I have the strong suspicion that you can dodge most of that in the US by just living in the right kind of place and having the right kind of job.)

Highly developed nations in general seem to have very low homicide rates and very low crime rates. The gap between the Netherlands and Singapore is much smaller than the gap between the Netherlands and Russia (20 homicides per 100,000 in 2006).

Sure, low crime rates are one (of many) factors that make for a nice place but they are not the only one. I will take my freedom of speech and the one in two million chance of being mugged and killed in one year in Germany over probably something like a one in four million chance of the same happening to me in Singapore any day.

(We also don’t know whether something like Singapore can scale up to 100 million or 300 million people or whether you can turn a highly developed nation with a population of, say, 100 million in twenty Singapores without unwanted side-effects.)

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#22

Post by sliverstorm »

jrockway wrote: post #3

Singapore is not that bad. If you stay in the touristy areas, yeah, everything is corporate and efficient seeming. You can go from the airport to your hotel without ever going outside. If you go to where people that live in Singapore go, though, it's just like any other city. Okay, not as cool as Manhattan or Tokyo or Hong Kong or London, but still pretty normal. As for the death penalty, yeah, they have it. Singapor…

> (The US seems upset about Singapore's death penalty, but we murder a lot more criminals than they do...)

We may execute more people, but there's nothing like the anecdotes from Singapore to make you feel like you're just one unlucky afternoon from a death sentence. When you're only this far away from being executed at all times, no matter how squeaky clean you live your life it's easy to get a little nervous.

I'm personally not necessarily against the death sentence, but I definitely appreciate that it is difficult to apply here in the US.

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#23

Post by maxklein »

My company is setup in singapore. Everything in singapore can be done online. You can log into every government service using the net. Which is all very convenient.

I think what westernerners misunderstand about singapore is exemplified by the "press button for green man" sign: http://www.flickr.com/photos/greta325/4906069350/

Singapore has a lot of people from cultures that don't pay attention to cleanliness and orderliness. So they have very clear and obvious signs and rules as well as punishments, so that people will conform. Westerners were already brought up in such cultures, they don't need to be shown so explicitly.

Also, Singapore has a lot of seedy stuff going on. They let in thai girls who act as hostesses on 6 month working visas to work in singapore as hostesses, for example. Singapore has organized seediness.

And if you talk to the people in singapore, almost everyone is perfectly satisfied with what the government is doing. It has made a very high standard of living and one of the best countries in south east asia. Why would they not be satisfied?

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#24

Post by [deleted] »

samdk wrote: post #4

This is fascinating. And terrifying. I can't imagine living in an environment like this. I'd be extremely interested to know what (if anything) has changed since 1993 when this when was written. (Speaking of which, a (1993) in the title might be nice, since there's no date on the print version. The original is here: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.04/gibson.html )

[deleted]

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#25

Post by yoonminn »

jasonjei wrote: post #2

The author hits it spot on about Singapore. It would probably have more in common with Apple than IBM--efficiently run, capitalist (to an extent), but is more or less a one-party system, as is common in East Asia (with the exception of Australia). Singapore is perhaps the best example of the so-called Apple 1984-ad state of information purity directives. OK, maybe that is an exaggeration. It is more likely the result…

The article's stenched with dramatic license to exude noir excitement. In reality, it's just like most Asian cosmopolitans. I've lived there.

This writer could write ten pages about the terrors of your own dark basement if he wanted to.

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#26

Post by mmaro »

ugh wrote: post #21
mmaro wrote: post #6

This is a famous article from 1993 , notable enough to have its own Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_Death_Penal... What I find interesting is that this piece doesn't include the words "crime" or "murder". There are what, one or two (solved) murders per year on an island of 5 million people? Freedom includes bad things not happening to you. Other freedoms you can enjoy (as far as I kn…

Singapore had a homicide rate of 0.39 per 100,000 in 2006 (that’s more than one or two), Japan had a homicide rate of 0.44 per 100,000 in the same year. European nations like Germany (0.98) or the Netherlands (0.78) are not far off. The USA have the highest homicide rate of all highly developed nations with 5.7 per 100,000 in 2006. (I’m too lazy to look at the statistics right now but I have the strong suspicion that…

Thanks for those numbers. Singapore's (official) homicide rate has gone down even further in recent years, but maybe the others have too. (edit: never mind; my memory/googlefu is failing me)

A nitpick: Germany (and many other countries) don't really have free speech because of Holocaust denials laws; the laws are written rather broadly [1]. But sure, it's less onerous than in Singapore.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#27

Post by loewenskind »

rottencupcakes wrote: post #9
jasonjei wrote: post #2

The author hits it spot on about Singapore. It would probably have more in common with Apple than IBM--efficiently run, capitalist (to an extent), but is more or less a one-party system, as is common in East Asia (with the exception of Australia). Singapore is perhaps the best example of the so-called Apple 1984-ad state of information purity directives. OK, maybe that is an exaggeration. It is more likely the result…

> In fact, I was surprised that all phones in Hong Kong are sold unlocked because government regulations require freedom of phone service. Which is where I bought my iPhone. (and it should come as no surprise that Singapore sells them locked.) I would venture to say that [Hong Kong] is poster child of libertarianism To clear up a common misconception I see (and I have no understanding of where this misunderstanding c…

>I would venture to say that [Hong Kong] is poster child of libertarianism

This is the problem with the post. Libertarianism does not lead to market freedom. It does for a very short time until someone becomes dominant and uses that dominance to buy or force out everyone else. The US is closer to libertarian ideas, which is why it has a less free market than other places that understand that capitalism can't work without regulations (the right regulations).

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#28

Post by kirvyteo »

sliverstorm wrote: post #22
jrockway wrote: post #3

Singapore is not that bad. If you stay in the touristy areas, yeah, everything is corporate and efficient seeming. You can go from the airport to your hotel without ever going outside. If you go to where people that live in Singapore go, though, it's just like any other city. Okay, not as cool as Manhattan or Tokyo or Hong Kong or London, but still pretty normal. As for the death penalty, yeah, they have it. Singapor…

> (The US seems upset about Singapore's death penalty, but we murder a lot more criminals than they do...) We may execute more people, but there's nothing like the anecdotes from Singapore to make you feel like you're just one unlucky afternoon from a death sentence. When you're only this far away from being executed at all times, no matter how squeaky clean you live your life it's easy to get a little nervous. I'm p…

If you only feel like "an unlucky afternoon can result in a death sentence", it is ok. But it is really far from the truth. Oh.. unless your daily life include smuggling drugs, kidnapping or something hideous.

I don't fear for my life everyday when I go to work. I am more concerned that I am late.

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#29

Post by ugh »

mmaro wrote: post #26
ugh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore had a homicide rate of 0.39 per 100,000 in 2006 (that’s more than one or two), Japan had a homicide rate of 0.44 per 100,000 in the same year. European nations like Germany (0.98) or the Netherlands (0.78) are not far off. The USA have the highest homicide rate of all highly developed nations with 5.7 per 100,000 in 2006. (I’m too lazy to look at the statistics right now but I have the strong suspicion that…

Thanks for those numbers. Singapore's (official) homicide rate has gone down even further in recent years, but maybe the others have too. (edit: never mind; my memory/googlefu is failing me) A nitpick: Germany (and many other countries) don't really have free speech because of Holocaust denials laws; the laws are written rather broadly [1]. But sure, it's less onerous than in Singapore. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

I am from Germany and I know the law as well as all the other laws that make freedom of speech in Germany not quite as free as freedom of speech in, say, the USA. I would personally much prefer US-style freedom of speech but I also think that freedom of speech is not a binary property and that Germany as a whole is doing quite well.

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#30

Post by kirvyteo »

jasonjei wrote: post #16
DanielN wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ah. ok. That totally make since. I guess my concern in holding up HK or Singapore as shining examples of economic freedom and efficiency are that both of them come with pretty terrible cases of second class citizenry as a direct byproduct of their economic freedoms. (I know this is not at all the point you were trying to make) Go to any apartment in central in HK and you will find a 5 by 5 foot room serving as maid q…

Great examples. You might also remember that it took Hong Kong forever to protect races and sex status. Singapore Airlines is notorious for discriminating age, sex, and looks of its flight attendants.

If I may ask, you mean you will like the government to "force" or "regulate" the airline to take over the recruitment so that there is one male and one female in every cabin and at every age group? Where is the "freedom" in that? :)

And with regards to looks, you got to be kidding me. I assume you are implying they are only getting beautiful ladies. :)

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