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Disneyland with the Death Penalty

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Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#11

Post by jasonjei »

DanielN wrote: post #10
jasonjei wrote: post #2

The author hits it spot on about Singapore. It would probably have more in common with Apple than IBM--efficiently run, capitalist (to an extent), but is more or less a one-party system, as is common in East Asia (with the exception of Australia). Singapore is perhaps the best example of the so-called Apple 1984-ad state of information purity directives. OK, maybe that is an exaggeration. It is more likely the result…

Comments like this are what make a binary voting system inefficient. Two thirds of your comment is spot on and pretty much exactly what I came here to say. When I initially viewed your comment it had been down voted and I debated whether or not I should vote it back up. But there are some glaring unfairnesses in your assessment that make me take pause. Suggesting that Hong Kong is the freest state in the region is ki…

Maybe I should have clarified as economic freedom, outscoring Australia and New Zealand. For actual civil liberties, you are right, the government is somewhat Chinese, somewhat corporate, and somewhat people controlled.

Source: http://asiancorrespondent.com/hong-kong-blog/freest-econonom...

For the 16th straight year Hong Kong has ranked top of the ladder as the freest economy in the world, according to the Index of Economic Freedom by the Heritage Foundation. [...]

This lofty ranking is generally attributed to the efficient processing of business applications, low tax rate and disciplined fiscal management by the government.

1. Starting a business in Hong Kong takes only six days while the rest of the world's average is 35 days 2. Hong Kong's weighted average tariff rate is zero per cent in 2008 3. Individuals enjoy a sliding scale tax rate between 2 and 17 percent 4. Maximum tax rate for businesses is pegged at just 16.5 percent 5. Import duties for beer and wine were removed in 2008 6. Tax revenue as a percentage of GDP stood at 14.2 percent 7. Inflation was generally low, averaging 3.5 percent between 2006 and 2008 8. There are no limits and no screening on foreign ownership when setting up foreign firm (except broadcasting) 9. There are no requirements on current transfers, access to foreign exchange and movement of profits.

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#12

Post by jasonjei »

rottencupcakes wrote: post #9
jasonjei wrote: post #2

The author hits it spot on about Singapore. It would probably have more in common with Apple than IBM--efficiently run, capitalist (to an extent), but is more or less a one-party system, as is common in East Asia (with the exception of Australia). Singapore is perhaps the best example of the so-called Apple 1984-ad state of information purity directives. OK, maybe that is an exaggeration. It is more likely the result…

> In fact, I was surprised that all phones in Hong Kong are sold unlocked because government regulations require freedom of phone service. Which is where I bought my iPhone. (and it should come as no surprise that Singapore sells them locked.) I would venture to say that [Hong Kong] is poster child of libertarianism To clear up a common misconception I see (and I have no understanding of where this misunderstanding c…

I agree, and I see the misnomer. I'm not a libertarian, so duly apologized if I did use the term incorrectly. But what I meant to say is Hong Kong's economy is very free.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/hong-kong-blog/freest-econonom...

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#13

Post by DanielN »

jasonjei wrote: post #11
DanielN wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comments like this are what make a binary voting system inefficient. Two thirds of your comment is spot on and pretty much exactly what I came here to say. When I initially viewed your comment it had been down voted and I debated whether or not I should vote it back up. But there are some glaring unfairnesses in your assessment that make me take pause. Suggesting that Hong Kong is the freest state in the region is ki…

Maybe I should have clarified as economic freedom, outscoring Australia and New Zealand. For actual civil liberties, you are right, the government is somewhat Chinese, somewhat corporate, and somewhat people controlled. Source: http://asiancorrespondent.com/hong-kong-blog/freest-econonom... For the 16th straight year Hong Kong has ranked top of the ladder as the freest economy in the world, according to the Index of…

ah. ok. That totally make since. I guess my concern in holding up HK or Singapore as shining examples of economic freedom and efficiency are that both of them come with pretty terrible cases of second class citizenry as a direct byproduct of their economic freedoms. (I know this is not at all the point you were trying to make)

Go to any apartment in central in HK and you will find a 5 by 5 foot room serving as maid quarters. Then go out in central on a Sunday afternoon and you will see the streets packed with Malaysian and Philippine maids. Then go look at the stats on the number of Chinese businessmen kidnapped in Malaysia and the Philippines every year and tell me there isn't a problem. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_on_Fire)

This problem doesn't exist anywhere in mainland China or Taiwan. And ultimately it is hard not to view it as an ugly byproduct of economic liberalism in these particular cultures.

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#14

Post by jasonjei »

DanielN wrote: post #10
jasonjei wrote: post #2

The author hits it spot on about Singapore. It would probably have more in common with Apple than IBM--efficiently run, capitalist (to an extent), but is more or less a one-party system, as is common in East Asia (with the exception of Australia). Singapore is perhaps the best example of the so-called Apple 1984-ad state of information purity directives. OK, maybe that is an exaggeration. It is more likely the result…

Comments like this are what make a binary voting system inefficient. Two thirds of your comment is spot on and pretty much exactly what I came here to say. When I initially viewed your comment it had been down voted and I debated whether or not I should vote it back up. But there are some glaring unfairnesses in your assessment that make me take pause. Suggesting that Hong Kong is the freest state in the region is ki…

Innovation in Asian countries is a huge problem. Part of this is Confucian values. I was educated for two years in Taiwan (my dad's company forced us to move, I was the white-washed Asian). Those brutal memories: I had to stay after school and take remedial work in the Chinese brush because I was barely literate, and every time my stroke was wrong the teacher would slam the brush against my fingers. We had to memorize poetry from Tang dynasty. If you missed even one character, you would miss the entire thing. No sissy partial credit.

When I tutored international students from Asia, the largest hurdle was to get them out of this box thinking. They wanted to be told how to write an essay, and they were asking me which side to take because they wanted to agree with the teacher. I said that was your job, that is what the teacher is testing you.

Except, when I read drafts of the essay, it read like a poorly plagiarized text of the history book. I said, you have no argument. You need to take a side. They blamed language difficulties, and I said, even if this were written in Chinese, you have no argument.

The main thing is that Asian countries value system and structure, and view that we stand on shoulders of giants. The problem, though, is they're highly trained and would out beat most US students on the SATs. Platonic systems have spurred a lot of innovation, but again, in the US, our foundations are weak: any moron can think he is genius in the States. The US education system is an interesting beast--it spurs innovation around college, but weak foundations during middle school years

For many industries, good foundations are keys to success. For software, though, you need to be able to be free thinking. Maybe this explains why China copies a lot of our software!

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#15

Post by pyre »

mmaro wrote: post #6

This is a famous article from 1993 , notable enough to have its own Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_Death_Penal... What I find interesting is that this piece doesn't include the words "crime" or "murder". There are what, one or two (solved) murders per year on an island of 5 million people? Freedom includes bad things not happening to you. Other freedoms you can enjoy (as far as I kn…

  > Freedom includes bad things not happening to you.
Huh? So you're not really 'free' unless your government can guarantee that nothing bad will ever happen to you?

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#16

Post by jasonjei »

DanielN wrote: post #13
jasonjei wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I should have clarified as economic freedom, outscoring Australia and New Zealand. For actual civil liberties, you are right, the government is somewhat Chinese, somewhat corporate, and somewhat people controlled. Source: http://asiancorrespondent.com/hong-kong-blog/freest-econonom... For the 16th straight year Hong Kong has ranked top of the ladder as the freest economy in the world, according to the Index of…

ah. ok. That totally make since. I guess my concern in holding up HK or Singapore as shining examples of economic freedom and efficiency are that both of them come with pretty terrible cases of second class citizenry as a direct byproduct of their economic freedoms. (I know this is not at all the point you were trying to make) Go to any apartment in central in HK and you will find a 5 by 5 foot room serving as maid q…

Great examples. You might also remember that it took Hong Kong forever to protect races and sex status. Singapore Airlines is notorious for discriminating age, sex, and looks of its flight attendants.

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#17

Post by harnhua »

pyre wrote: post #15
mmaro wrote: post #6

This is a famous article from 1993 , notable enough to have its own Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_Death_Penal... What I find interesting is that this piece doesn't include the words "crime" or "murder". There are what, one or two (solved) murders per year on an island of 5 million people? Freedom includes bad things not happening to you. Other freedoms you can enjoy (as far as I kn…

> Freedom includes bad things not happening to you. Huh? So you're not really 'free' unless your government can guarantee that nothing bad will ever happen to you?

Hmm... I guess I don't see any part of the original sentence that implies what you just wrote.

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#18

Post by mmaro »

pyre wrote: post #15
mmaro wrote: post #6

This is a famous article from 1993 , notable enough to have its own Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_Death_Penal... What I find interesting is that this piece doesn't include the words "crime" or "murder". There are what, one or two (solved) murders per year on an island of 5 million people? Freedom includes bad things not happening to you. Other freedoms you can enjoy (as far as I kn…

> Freedom includes bad things not happening to you. Huh? So you're not really 'free' unless your government can guarantee that nothing bad will ever happen to you?

It's not possible to guarantee that nothing bad will ever happen to someone. But I am definitely more free if the government actually prevents (ex-?)criminals from harming me. A sovereign is responsible when criminals harm people; they have the ability to institute high- and low-tech measures to vastly reduce crime. The government I'm familiar with (USG) does very little, because of structural problems.

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#19

Post by kirvyteo »

It is an old and famous article and there are some interesting facts about the article you should know. You would think that the person charged, "Monetary Authority of Singapore official Shanmugaratnam Tharman", would be facing the death penalty or exiled, but sorry to disappoint you, he is now a Minister for Finance, and with considerable clout.

Anyway, I live here and the article sounds exaggerated and over dramatized, and at the end, I felt it was really humorous. People changed, places changed, rules changed. A well written article doesn't make it real nor the well rehearsed words of a politician. So to say "The author hits it spot on about Singapore", is really bewildering.

I always like to compare the drugs laws here with the gun laws (or lack of) in US. If you care about effectiveness or deaths, which one has ended up with more deaths as a result of the laws based on per capita?

(For the skeptics, oh yeah, you are right, the lee dictatorship is forcing me to write this. Ok I am ready to be downvoted.)

Re: Disneyland with the Death Penalty

#20

Post by hboon »

jasonjei wrote: post #2

The author hits it spot on about Singapore. It would probably have more in common with Apple than IBM--efficiently run, capitalist (to an extent), but is more or less a one-party system, as is common in East Asia (with the exception of Australia). Singapore is perhaps the best example of the so-called Apple 1984-ad state of information purity directives. OK, maybe that is an exaggeration. It is more likely the result…

In fact, I was surprised that all phones in Hong Kong are sold unlocked because government regulations require freedom of phone service. Which is where I bought my iPhone. (And it should come as no surprise that Singapore sells them locked.)

For as long as I can remember (and that means the last 10 years), Singapore have always only have unlocked handsets.

Articles like these (by an outsider) tends to paint an extreme picture of the city. If people just bothered to look around, you'll see dirty toilets, rubbish on the floor, lots of poor people, and yes, news reports of corruption.

And if you look at the other extreme, you'll see friendly and helpful people that deal with (government-owned) housing problems etc.

The world's not black and white.

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