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Germany plans €3B in AI investments

reuters.com

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Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#51

Post by Rinzler89 »

bitL wrote: post #30
Rinzler89 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Germmany like most other European countries doesn't really have any local FAANG like companies and you can see than in the job market. Most dev salaries at local companies are garbage compared to what FAANG companies pay in their EU offices.

News for you: FAANG companies pay garbage salaries in their EU offices (Switzerland is not EU). Source: glassdoor.com

Funny that you believe Glassdoor salaries as being accurate. People who earn the big bucks don't advertise that on Glassdoor.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#52

Post by mrdodge »

outside1234 wrote: post #38
_match wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> When has that ever not worked out in our favor? Would you explain a little more? I'm ignorant about the history of German government investment in IT. But here in America, federal investment has helped ignite new industries. And as a data science engineer, I'd love to see more German code.

German firms (like Deutsche Telekom) have a ton of redundant jobs because of their inability to make needed structural changes because of the work councils and labor laws. This is why firms like Google are hiring in Switzerland and the United Kingdom instead of France and Germany.

> have a ton of redundant jobs because of their inability to make needed structural changes because of the work councils and labor laws.

How will they able to adapt to truly focus on electric cars then? Especially when that means many of their suppliers become redundant.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#53

Post by TeMPOraL »

thwy12321 wrote: post #20
zwaps wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since only relative income count, you have to expand your comment by saying that these countries - Do not respect Bankers and CEOs - Do not respect academics - Do not respect managers - Respect teachers too much - Respect waiters and delivery drivers too much etc. It's all relative. It's all trade-offs. In the US, you can get actual rich by working a normal dev job. On the other hand, many of my US high school teache…

Not trying to start an argument about country wide wage compensation. But relative to other 'competitive' professional careers, such as doctors, lawyers, bankers, etc, Europe vastly underpays programmers, but also shows them little respect in the workplace. It's not just about the money, the social status of a software engineer in Europe is very low. This is making it difficult for Europe to compete on an internation…

In some European countries at least. Poland is next door from Germany, and we have more "american" distribution of wages - programmers are high-earners, teachers are low-earners.

From what I hear, Germany seems relatively unique in having its programmers a part of the lower class.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#54

Post by yorwba »

biglenny wrote: post #36
orbifold wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are really ignorant statements. Bosch, Siemens, BMW etc. definitely pay well and employ plenty of talented people.

Ignorant? It's a well known fact that European tech salaries (especially SWE salaries) are dwarfed by American/SV salaries. Just look up the difference in what GOOGLE pays its American vs EU employees. This doesn't even take into account taxation rate, which is favorable in US. Virtually every "How much do you earn?" thread that pops up on HN has loads of comments with Europeans being surprised at the amount of money…

Those Europeans surprised at the the amount of money Americans make evidently aren't working in America. Maybe that tautologically makes them not the best, but I doubt it. Sometimes a "good enough" salary at a place you're comfortable beats an astronomical salary that requires moving to Silicon Valley.

That you personally only know few people who moved to Europe from the US but many who moved to the US probably says more about your location than about general trends. I know only few Germans who moved to the US for work, but many Americans, Iranians and Chinese who moved to Berlin. But that's where I live, so it's to be expected.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#55

Post by cabraca »

cat199 wrote: post #40
cabraca wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Investments in IT" by the german government means we somehow funnel money to the big companies to make sure they dont fire people. Deutsche Telekom daughter T-Systems decided in september to cut 6000 jobs in germany (10k worldwide) to save 600mio €/year. Now the Government spents 3B on "AI". Coincidence?

seems a bit of a stretch in correlation ... what does it mean if Angela Merkel wears green underwear on tuesday?

Consider this: approximately 32% of Deutsche Telekom is owned by the german state[0]. Its in their interest, that the money goes to the "right" company.

[0]: https://www.telekom.com/en/investor-relations/company/shareh...

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#56

Post by sveme »

SilasX wrote: post #35
bitL wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A typical Berlin startup: - hires devs with extremely low salaries - gives 0.004% equity at best - is run by people that are "better than anybody else" - expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability - has managers with issues saying "thank you" - hires friends/family to higher echelons of company Does this sound like a recipe for success?

>expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability Doesn't that conflict with German labor law? Edit: Definitely agree about credentialism ("people that are better than anyone else"). Germany takes that to the extreme. Career change in your 30s? Not possible.

I actually changed careers three times in my 30s. No issues whatsoever. Sounds like the proverbial Germans downtalking Germany And all the Germans agreeing.

Then again, why would a society change for the better if there would not be all the internet and Stammtisch complaining and moaning about all that could be better?

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#57

Post by yorwba »

Rinzler89 wrote: post #51
bitL wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

News for you: FAANG companies pay garbage salaries in their EU offices (Switzerland is not EU). Source: glassdoor.com

Funny that you believe Glassdoor salaries as being accurate. People who earn the big bucks don't advertise that on Glassdoor.

The comparison remains valid, even if it only tells you that the people not earning the big bucks in one place make more than their counterparts in another.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#58

Post by Barrin92 »

nradov wrote: post #4

Oh great, more industrial policy. I'm sure the results of this program will be just as spectacular as Japan's fifth-generation computer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_computer

It can work out well and it can fail. While experiments like Japan's fifth generation computer may have failed to produce commercial results, it still trained a generation of very able scientists. Without the significant spending of the US government, the Silicon Valley would not exist in its current form either.

During a time when software and hardware applications had no large market, the military and the government where essentially the only large consumers of the American businesses that are now hundreds of billions of dollars large.

Entrepreneurs in the US love this renegade story of somehow being less dependent on government support than anyone else on the planet, but it's revisionist history. A lot of American commercial success in IT has its roots in government funded programs and consumption.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#59

Post by reacharavindh »

bitL wrote: post #32
rsp1984 wrote: post #25

The problem is not a lack of funds. The problem is bureaucracy and a lack of startup infrastructure. My feeling is that the people in charge have absolutely no effing clue about how to most efficiently deploy this money so they will do what sounds good on paper but will have 0 effect in reality. If it goes how it usually goes the largest part of this money will likely to to universities and other research institution…

A typical Berlin startup: - hires devs with extremely low salaries - gives 0.004% equity at best - is run by people that are "better than anybody else" - expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability - has managers with issues saying "thank you" - hires friends/family to higher echelons of company Does this sound like a recipe for success?

Don't know about the rest of the points, but I looked into several job opportunities at Berlin, and was shocked by how low their offered salaries were. That was the end of my interest in looking for jobs at Berlin...

I live in Denmark currently, and can attest that to some extent, salaries cannot be compared because of different social structures & expenses. Getting paid 50% of what I used to make in the US did not mean standard of living went to 50%. But, for a comp.engineer, US wins out by a huge margin in terms of money.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#60

Post by Rinzler89 »

orbifold wrote: post #26
mrdodge wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an interesting thought. Does German really have a prayer in this space? Making breakthroughs in this space isn't something just any trained student can do. The best all work for American tech companies... German co's don't believe in paying well. This can be extended to most European nations.

Those are really ignorant statements. Bosch, Siemens, BMW etc. definitely pay well and employ plenty of talented people.

They pay well indeed but not the devs or engineers. The managers and all the old boy's are riding the gravy train in those companies but your average Dev there is being taken for a ride. If you have no interest of going twards Management, there are better place to work.
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