Live data from Hacker News

Evolved antenna

en.wikipedia.org

11–20 of 69 posts

Re: Evolved antenna

#11
post #7

Reminds me of an old article about evolutionary circuit design. The computer was tasked with creating a osscilator using physical hardware. It created a really complex and unconventional design that no-one understood, but it worked, only not work outside of the lab. As it turned out the algorithm had designed it in a way that it used the radio noise from the computer it was running on as a source. It had effectively…

That is super fascinating. Do you happen to have a link?

Re: Evolved antenna

#13
post #9
post #3

Evolved antennas are good for certain purposes, but for highly directional links, the laws of physics say that there isn't much better than some variation on a human + CAD + Matlab designed parabolic reflector (whether it's center feed, compact cassegrain, elliptical offset feed, etc). Take a look at the dishes used for 71-86 GHz band mmwave links for instance.

"Better" when the goal is a very narrow beam pattern and minimal side- and back-lobes. That isn't always the goal. For instance, putting your entire FCC city-of-license within your grade A signal contour from X miles away at a bearing of B. Or, in one case I am aware of, covering your puny city of license in one direction, and incidentally getting good coverage into the much bigger city off the back of the beam so th…

Not my field, only related to it, but looking at the ERI antenna catalog, they resemble human designed variations on yagi, dipole and log periodic antennas...

https://www.eriinc.com/catalog/antennas/

Re: Evolved antenna

#14
post #6

Interesting to see this antenna here. I heard the creator speak at a local IEEE event a few years ago. Quite remarkable. Nobody would intuit an antenna design like that. Great demonstration of the power of GA. Antenna optimization software has changed antenna design completely. Before wide-spread computer simulation, there was an awful lot of antenna range cut-and-try. Antennas are much better now. Learning to drive…

Another good example of this is fractal antenna design that allowed significant efficiency/space improvements in mobile phones and allowed one physical antenna to work for multiple frequencies quite well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_antenna

Re: Evolved antenna

#15
post #7

Reminds me of an old article about evolutionary circuit design. The computer was tasked with creating a osscilator using physical hardware. It created a really complex and unconventional design that no-one understood, but it worked, only not work outside of the lab. As it turned out the algorithm had designed it in a way that it used the radio noise from the computer it was running on as a source. It had effectively…

That is super fascinating. Do you happen to have a link?

Not the article the root comment is referring to. This one has GA creating timing circuits by exploiting subtle flaws in FPGAs: https://www.damninteresting.com/on-the-origin-of-circuits/

Re: Evolved antenna

#16
post #7

Reminds me of an old article about evolutionary circuit design. The computer was tasked with creating a osscilator using physical hardware. It created a really complex and unconventional design that no-one understood, but it worked, only not work outside of the lab. As it turned out the algorithm had designed it in a way that it used the radio noise from the computer it was running on as a source. It had effectively…

Seems like an entertaining story but for that to work, the computer would have to have physical access to either each version of the circuit it designed or have the radiation-conditions in the lab programmed into its fitness functions. Neither of these conditions seem at all likely. Any evolutionary circuit design would involve the evolution of properties as modeled by some equations (as the antenna design process does) rather physical manipulation of circuits.

I suspect you're remembering some entertaining "how AI could hypothetically escape" scenario instead. Sure, maybe a "real AI" is going to escape but an evolutionary algorithm, which is just several loops around fitness and mutation functions, probably isn't going be coming up with such novel approaches.

Re: Evolved antenna

#17
post #7

Reminds me of an old article about evolutionary circuit design. The computer was tasked with creating a osscilator using physical hardware. It created a really complex and unconventional design that no-one understood, but it worked, only not work outside of the lab. As it turned out the algorithm had designed it in a way that it used the radio noise from the computer it was running on as a source. It had effectively…

Was it Creatures From Primordial Silicon?

http://www.netscrap.com/netscrap_detail.cfm?scrap_id=73

They used a FPGA for voice detection. It was fascinating they didn't understand how it worked, and it wasn't a universal design because it depended on manufacturing variation.

Re: Evolved antenna

#18
post #7

Reminds me of an old article about evolutionary circuit design. The computer was tasked with creating a osscilator using physical hardware. It created a really complex and unconventional design that no-one understood, but it worked, only not work outside of the lab. As it turned out the algorithm had designed it in a way that it used the radio noise from the computer it was running on as a source. It had effectively…

Seems like an entertaining story but for that to work, the computer would have to have physical access to either each version of the circuit it designed or have the radiation-conditions in the lab programmed into its fitness functions. Neither of these conditions seem at all likely. Any evolutionary circuit design would involve the evolution of properties as modeled by some equations (as the antenna design process do…

The one I'm familiar with linked in another comment) used FPGAs, which the algorithm could control the circuit design of.

Re: Evolved antenna

#19
post #7

Reminds me of an old article about evolutionary circuit design. The computer was tasked with creating a osscilator using physical hardware. It created a really complex and unconventional design that no-one understood, but it worked, only not work outside of the lab. As it turned out the algorithm had designed it in a way that it used the radio noise from the computer it was running on as a source. It had effectively…

Seems like an entertaining story but for that to work, the computer would have to have physical access to either each version of the circuit it designed or have the radiation-conditions in the lab programmed into its fitness functions. Neither of these conditions seem at all likely. Any evolutionary circuit design would involve the evolution of properties as modeled by some equations (as the antenna design process do…

Could be, it was an article in a young scientist magazine maybe 20 years back or so. As I remember they iterated over actual hardware versions using modular passive components (resistors, capacitors, coils) much like you would find in a school lab.

Re: Evolved antenna

#20
post #2

They say this is only used rarely. I’m curious why people wouldn’t design every antenna this way

Talking less about antennas but more about the overall concept, most evolutionary algorithms don't take manufactoring into account at all, so they tend to be a pain to actually build.
Post reply on HN