(- Ivy alum)
The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)
11–20 of 39 posts
Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)
#12I read this article a while ago, and I had a reaction that I think has gelled a little more since then. I think I take issue with the notion that elite = ivy league (or similar institutions). It's true that ivies dominate the top spots of the us news and world report undergraduate college rankings (where no public university cracks the top 20) and tend to do well on rankings of top professional school programs (espec…
Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)
#13I read this article a while ago, and I had a reaction that I think has gelled a little more since then. I think I take issue with the notion that elite = ivy league (or similar institutions). It's true that ivies dominate the top spots of the us news and world report undergraduate college rankings (where no public university cracks the top 20) and tend to do well on rankings of top professional school programs (espec…
The author doesn't mean Elite in the sense of "good" or "high quality". The Elite he's referring to is the Upper Class. The culture at the top Ivies is nothing like that at any of the schools that you listed. State and tech schools have a lot more class diversity, and while Stanford isn't state or tech, it seems to value diversity more than the Ivies. . . . so the author isn't saying you get a better education (almos…
Ever read Henry James's "The American"? It's a story from the late 1800s about a wealthy American in Paris who, at one point, seeks to marry a young woman from an aristocratic French family. The brother (I think) informs him that there is a problem - "you are not noble". His reply (sorry, paraphrasing) is "the devil I am not!" The brother becomes more serious and says "oh, I didn't know that you had a title." The American says he doesn't have a title, but he's putting in a claim on this whole "noble" thing...
I guess that's what I'm doing. I won't concede the term "elite" to a parasitic upper class, any more than I'd give away the term "best and brightest" (oh, you see, I'm defining "best and brightest" to mean ivy league, hewh hewh").
I think that graduates of these schools should absolutely put in a claim on the word "elite". We may come off as a little comical, like Henry James's American... but in the long run, well look what happened to the French aristocracy ;)
Oh, one quick thing - I agree with you that you're more likely to encounter real economic diversity at the large state schools (even the top ones) than at the ivies, but I still want to make sure I point out that it would be extremely very unfair to suggest that ivy leaguers are a uniformly "parasitic upper class" group. Hell, it would have probably even been somewhat unfair in 1958. It's definitely not fair now.
That said, there really is something about engineering - probably it's history as more of a middle-class profession. I read that John Nash was deeply disappointed to get a faculty appointment at MIT rather than Harvard out of his PhD program (at Princeton, I think it was). The author of the biography had to take an aside to explain to 21st century readers that at the time, the math dept at MIT was still viewed somewhat as place where middle class engineers learned their calculus, though it was in the midst of transitioning into the elite school it is now (John Nash was the sort of acquisition MIT was starting to make).
Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)
#14Many of the students (and friends) with whom I interacted saw MIT as their "final step" in a long life of achievements and accomplishments. After this, they were "set for life." They just had to get through it. Then came the high-paying consulting jobs, the fun research, the exciting leadership opportunities, etc. It was all right there for them. Until it wasn't, because the economy sank.
Many of those same people now took "less important" jobs just to get through the economic slump. So few people thought about venturing out on their own, it actually kind of disheartened me.
Don't get me wrong, there were still a ton of people trying to start their own projects, think on their own, and whom looked at MIT as but a stepping stone to propel them to be able to affect the world. Unfortunately, a lot of the students also seemed to only care about making their money and living comfortably.
On the other hand, I think this is a problem with our educational system in general; not just the elite schools. I consider myself almost lucky to have come from a fairly non-affluent family, since I grew up around one "class" of people (mostly not-well-off immigrants) and got to experience interacting with another at school.
MIT is probably not the worst offender in terms of not having any sort of socioeconomic diversity, since admissions are all done need-blind and there really are a lot of immigrants and no legacy or sports admissions, but the issue still exists. I can only imagine that at schools where that is not the case, this problem manifests itself in a much worse way.
Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)
#15That said, the benefits of top private schools are overstated.
The main benefit goes to those of average intelligence who would get annihilated at a large state school - what the author refers to as an "endless string of second chances."
You also make a lot more connections with people who will ultimately end up in power positions, which makes life easier as you rise up the ranks.
If you're smart enough to be a top student at an Ivy League school, it really doesn't matter much where you go.
Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)
#16I tried to talk to one of the Harvard grads, and asked him what he was doing. Apparently he's working at the Sierra Club, and from his job description, his role amounted to essentially a receptionist. And from talking to him, he seemed disillusioned that his degree didn't offer him all the benefits that he believed he was entitled.
The Harvard elitism that come out a bit, if not intentionally. My friend was trying to help out the bloke who couldn't understand why he couldn't get a decent paying job as a Harvard grad, and was telling him to do lucrative tutoring jobs. He coached, "You're a Harvard grad! Parents will fork a lot of money to have a Harvard grad tutor their kids, hoping that their kids can also attend Harvard!"
Maybe I'm oversensitive as an outsider, but I didn't feel much warmth or feel that these Harvard educated fellows were very interested in talking to me. And maybe they're blessed to have such camaraderie. After all, I am just one who went to Arizona State/AFROTC with a vocational degree in CSE instead of a liberal arts education.
It's not difficult for me to talk to grads of schools from "regular" institutions, such as UCLA, Berkeley, USC, UC Irvine, et al, even with a liberal arts education. But when trying to talk to grads of an "elite education," I have found it considerably more awkward, and struggle to level common ground. Usually it ends up in a lack of interest by both parties to talk to each other, or smalltalk, waiting for the first opportunity to escape from discomfort such as a convenient phone call or errand to run.
It's possible that this is just a typical case of in-group vs. out-group happening, but I've never found myself so lost at words that I pretty much conversed smalltalk the entire time.
Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)
#17Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)
#18Graduates of elite schools are not more valuable than stupid people, or talentless people, or even lazy people. That's a common enough platitude, but I'm not convinced that it's true. Or rather, it's the sort of thing we like to pretend is true for the sake of a functioning society (since nobody likes to discuss exactly who is worth more than whom) and everybody goes along with it. We'll admit extreme cases (like Bee…
Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)
#19This is a wealthy guy who spends all of his time with other wealthy people. He shouldn't blame the college he went to for him being unable to communicate with working class people. He wouldn't be any more skilled at this if he'd gone to a middle-tier school; most Americans don't go to college. (- Ivy alum)
Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)
#20A wonderful example of such a work is J.R. Moerhinger's Tender Bar.