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Web.dev by Google

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Re: Web.dev by Google

#241

Post by bitofhope »

Calib3r wrote: post #224
bitofhope wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell yea my site works cross-browser. I've tested it with Firefox, Chromium, Midori, w3m, lynx, surf, and edbrowse and they all look fine. I freely admit I have no idea what a PWA actually is, but that page is not helping me understand. All I find are vague descriptions about how they're reliable, fast and engaging, but nothing even approaching a definition. For all I know, a 16-ounce claw hammer is a PWA. It's certa…

Explorer & Edge make up more than 30% of internet traffic, yet you ignore testing them?

I don't have a computer running an operating system that supports either of those browsers so I can't test with them. However, I assume they can render basic HTML enough to make my site readable and I don't even think there's anything in the CSS to change that.

Re: Web.dev by Google

#242

Post by stupidbird »

kaycebasques wrote: post #235
stupidbird wrote: post #99

I can't wait for one of the executives in my company to run into this, understand nothing but the numbers, and then complain about our numbers not being higher despite the fact that half of these metrics aren't applicable to our web app. I already have a boilerplate response to "why isn't our google pagespeed score higher" that I copy and paste. I know Google's happy about performance nagging, but I wish they were be…

I agree that this is a problem. See my other comment in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18442686

Thanks for reading through the comments.

I do agree that some sort of "not all these metrics may be applicable to your architecture, please consult an engineer" would go a long way.

I left a toxic work environment at one point where I was literally yelled at because I was claiming to know our company's situation better than Google's pagespeed tools.

Needless to say, that wasn't the only problem with that job... but it's frustrating.

Re: Web.dev by Google

#243

Post by kaycebasques »

theandrewbailey wrote: post #240
kaycebasques wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that splitting up your CSS to only send the critical stuff first is tough to scale and it's tough to find a reliable solution. > It kind of breaks how CSS is supposed to work. Can you elaborate on this? > You easily run the risk of sending redundant bytes if the same styles are still in your external CSS. I think we're up against 2 less-than-optimal situations. Suppose you have 50KB of CSS. * Ship it the trad…

Thank you for your reply. It breaks CSS, because having styles on the page couples presentation with content. The selling point of CSS is to change a style in one place, and have it affect multiple pages. If you break it up, you end up having to maintain multiple versions of your CSS. To do this in the name of performance strikes me as one of the very last things to do, given it's unfavorable maintenance cost. > I th…

Thanks for the extra info. I assigned myself an issue to remind myself to look into the topic more: https://github.com/google/WebFundamentals/issues/6832

Re: Web.dev by Google

#244

Post by billyhoffman »

kaycebasques wrote: post #231
bitofhope wrote: post #178

This is useless to me because I have a website, not a web application. I got a 46/100 on PWA which is astonishing because the site being tested is not a progressive web application at all. Imagine vim getting a 40/100 score in the category of web browsers. Weirdly good score. The accessibility audit is garbage as well. Apparently I should add an image to the site just so I can put an alt attribute in it. I should inc…

If you run Lighthouse (the tool that powers web.dev's auditing feature) from a CLI or as a Node module, you can tell it to only run the audits that are relevant to your needs. https://github.com/GoogleChrome/lighthouse/blob/master/docs/... I get the general frustration that non-technical teammates look at these reports and say, "we're doing terrible, you need to fix this" when in reality you know that the audits aren…

+1M to the idea to leverage CUER data to filter recommendations. That would be awesome.

Re: Web.dev by Google

#246

Post by gigaftp »

bitofhope wrote: post #214
arendtio wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to brush up your knowledge on what a PWA actually is [1]. For example, that list contains 'Site works cross-browser'. I hope your website works cross-browser too ;-) The only thing that sets apart a normal modern website (https, responsive, cross-browser, Each page has a URL) and a PWA is the ServiceWorker (and a few meta-tags). All the other aspects are more or less soft or minor aspects like "Page tr…

Hell yea my site works cross-browser. I've tested it with Firefox, Chromium, Midori, w3m, lynx, surf, and edbrowse and they all look fine. I freely admit I have no idea what a PWA actually is, but that page is not helping me understand. All I find are vague descriptions about how they're reliable, fast and engaging, but nothing even approaching a definition. For all I know, a 16-ounce claw hammer is a PWA. It's certa…

PWA = Progressive Web Application

It's basically a set of techniques and technologies developed in an attempt to produce a user experience similar to that of a native application when using a web application.

In the case of not having a service worker, well, a PWA without services workers doesn't make much sense. This is because service workers are used to cache content to create that 'native' feeling of your application not 404ing when you go through a tunnel.

Re: Web.dev by Google

#247

Post by hyperdimension »

Zelphyr wrote: post #223
zwaps wrote: post #194

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE WEBDEVS, STOP LOADING YOUR WEBSITE WITH CRAP TO MAKE THEM BETTER I fed a large news site that is not terrible to use into this, and it gave it 14/100 rating. This news site is perfectly fine, has a good design, good typography and loads without any scripts if you need it to. It loads quite fast. Among other things, Google recommends - Lazy loading: NOOOO, just load my document. I hate this bullcr…

I agree with you about lazy loading. It's just dumb. How is it better to give me a scaffold of a page before the content? The page may look nice but is unusable until the content has loaded. Why not just give me everything when it's ready? I've gotten into trouble for saying this before but things like recommending lazy loading is an example of Google imposing their wishes on the web and making it worse in the proces…

Personally, I specifically can't stand the lazy loading that happens on youtube/facebook. The kind where there is no text, just shimmering placeholders until the actual content has loaded.

I just don't understand why they think I will think their site loads faster if they don't actually have any content right when I click on it, rather than the server actually delivering the page with some modicum of content...

Re: Web.dev by Google

#248

Post by 0xffff2 »

acdha wrote: post #238
SquareWheel wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Progressive enhancement is different than what the parent comment is suggesting. They are describing how to correctly write SPAs and other webapps. The reason progressive enhancement has fallen away is because Javascript support is now ubiquitous. Your browser has it. Your screen reader has it. Even web crawlers have it.

> The reason progressive enhancement has fallen away is because Javascript support is now ubiquitous. Your browser has it. Your screen reader has it. Even web crawlers have it. That's only part of the problem: every day I encounter sites which fail because the developers assumed not just that everyone has JavaScript but that they can load tons of assets reliably and instantaneously. The key part of progressive enhanc…

>A couple of weeks back, I was using a family member's Spectrum “high-speed” cable modem service at a whopping 5Mbps with latency measured in the hundreds of milliseconds.

And that's still great internet compared to some places. I have a house out in the middle of nowhere that is only served by a single satellite internet provider (surrounded by trees that block the view to other providers' sats). I get 20Mbs at ~500-1000ms latency for a few days before I hit the 20Gb cap, then I get 0.5-1Mbs for the rest of the month. Hacker News is one of the few sites on the web that I can browse relatively painlessly when I'm up here.

Re: Web.dev by Google

#250

Post by SquareWheel »

acdha wrote: post #238
SquareWheel wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Progressive enhancement is different than what the parent comment is suggesting. They are describing how to correctly write SPAs and other webapps. The reason progressive enhancement has fallen away is because Javascript support is now ubiquitous. Your browser has it. Your screen reader has it. Even web crawlers have it.

> The reason progressive enhancement has fallen away is because Javascript support is now ubiquitous. Your browser has it. Your screen reader has it. Even web crawlers have it. That's only part of the problem: every day I encounter sites which fail because the developers assumed not just that everyone has JavaScript but that they can load tons of assets reliably and instantaneously. The key part of progressive enhanc…

I'd put network use in a different category. It is an important issue though.

Thankfully the tools are getting better for this. The recently supported font-display property is a great one. It allows devs to choose how to handle web font rendering over slower internet connections.

Now I just wish more devs would start to take advantage of all the great performance tools available. Those best practices are unfortunately rarely taught.

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