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The War Inside 7-Eleven

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Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#111

Post by msla »

jnbiche wrote: post #33
tomschlick wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but this kind of display is emblematic of a fascist government Enforcing immigration law passed by a democratically elected congress is fascist? Really?

No, a corporation using a federal law enforcement agency to target owners who were disfavored by the corporation is typical of fascism. I'm not even interested in this fake debate that was stirred up about immigration. Of course we have to have enforced borders. Of course we need immigration laws that will be enforced. What concerns me is the collaboration between corporations and state power, all taking place in an…

No, it isn't:

People here want to perform a bait-and-switch: "Corporatism" was a word the Fascists used, but people want it to mean "business involvement in government", so the use it in the new sense while stating it's the word the Fascists used. It's dishonest.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#112

Post by msla »

jnbiche wrote: post #49
msla wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fascism is the bonding of state and corporate power ... only if you define "corporation" the way Fascists did: http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/corporatism.htm > In the last half of the 19th century people of the working class in Europe were beginning to show interest in the ideas of socialism and syndicalism. Some members of the intelligentsia, particularly the Catholic intelligentsia, decided to formulate an a…

While what you describe happened in Italy, at least in the Mussolini's early years in power, that is decidedly not what happened in fascist Germany, where business powers closely cooperated/collaborated with state powers. We can call it those business powers "industrialism" if the word "corporate" is bothering you.

I'm calling you out on the bait-and-switch you're attempting.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#113

Post by masonic »

jnbiche wrote: post #55
tomschlick wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you see it the same way if it were related to taxes? As in, if 7-11 found out certain franchisee's were skirting tax laws using their brand name and they reported it to the IRS to avoid any collusion claims ahead of time would that be fascist? If not then how is that different?

The point of the article is that a unusually high number of businesses targeted for these actions happened to be critiques of corporate 7-Eleven, or engaged in lawsuits. And yes, I would worry likewise if it were taxes used as the underlying cause for these kinds of raids. Again, I'm explicitly not calling this "fascism". I said "emblematic of fascism". I actually don't think we've descended into fascism yet. But as…

  unusually high number
The article doesn't say that. Given that it offers no data on ICE investigation rates of compliant franchisees, you can't even say there is disproportionate enforcement against the non-compliant.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#114

Post by jnbiche »

masonic wrote: post #113
jnbiche wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the article is that a unusually high number of businesses targeted for these actions happened to be critiques of corporate 7-Eleven, or engaged in lawsuits. And yes, I would worry likewise if it were taxes used as the underlying cause for these kinds of raids. Again, I'm explicitly not calling this "fascism". I said "emblematic of fascism". I actually don't think we've descended into fascism yet. But as…

unusually high number The article doesn't say that. Given that it offers no data on ICE investigation rates of compliant franchisees, you can't even say there is disproportionate enforcement against the non-compliant.

You're right. I re-read the article and there's really not enough data to make a firm conclusion, although it seems like a real possibility.

I wish people on this site would just argue using facts like you do, instead of downvoting comments to invisibility and flagging them. It's frustrating.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#115

Post by moorhosj »

Sir_Vival wrote: post #89
moorhosj wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigration is at generationally low levels, I don’t see how you could blame it for lack of wage increases. What about the stagnant minimum wage, record corporate profits or union busting; might they play a role? “American society” and “our values” are by-products of immigration, how would more immigrants ruin that?

I'll give you a firm example. I'm close to a town of 20,000 in rural Minnesota, and the biggest employer is a well known turkey company. Their plants used to be staffed with primarily native (and being in Minnesota, white) people. It was menial, hard labor but it paid well because of that. By the 90s the plant was primarily staffed by illegal Mexican immigrants, and now it's almost entirely Somalians. The jobs are re…

You still haven't proven that immigration is the cause of this particular wage stagnation. You want to believe it is, but you haven't given evidence.

Is there proof that non-immigrants even want to do this work? The well-known case from Georgia suggests they don't. https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/05/17/the-law-of-...

At the same time, couldn't the state just raise the minimum wage?

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#116

Post by mixmastamyk »

moorhosj wrote: post #115
Sir_Vival wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll give you a firm example. I'm close to a town of 20,000 in rural Minnesota, and the biggest employer is a well known turkey company. Their plants used to be staffed with primarily native (and being in Minnesota, white) people. It was menial, hard labor but it paid well because of that. By the 90s the plant was primarily staffed by illegal Mexican immigrants, and now it's almost entirely Somalians. The jobs are re…

You still haven't proven that immigration is the cause of this particular wage stagnation. You want to believe it is, but you haven't given evidence. Is there proof that non-immigrants even want to do this work? The well-known case from Georgia suggests they don't. https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/05/17/the-law-of-... At the same time, couldn't the state just raise the minimum wage?

He says they used to, but wages didn't keep up.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#117

Post by camgunz »

rayiner wrote: post #94
Aloha wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? Our ancestors tried to annihilate natives in almost totality (physically first, then just culturally) - why is it a shock that some Americans would be afraid of the same thing happening to us? I mean one of the hallmarks of American culture is subsuming the culture of the newly arrived into our own - it not unconscionable to think that some Americans think all peoples/cultures have that same impulse. I'm gener…

As an immigrant myself, that is certainly what my family thought they were signing up for when they came here. Indeed, we left Bangladesh precisely because it was turning away from western culture and values. I think, for the most part, immigrants today feel that way too. (There is evidence that Spanish speaking immigrants are taking up English faster than German speaking immigrants did). What scares me are the (I th…

(I'm clearly very liberal)

I think it's less binary than assimilating vs. not. Cultures are complex, and depending on your preference, you might like American culture (whatever that really even is) if it acquired some traits from others.

For example, Japan has a super low crime rate. Let's stipulate that this is a cultural thing. If you think the cultural traits that lead to this super low crime rate are good, then presumably you'd welcome lots of Japanese immigrants bringing that culture here to the US. On the other hand, if you're a freewheeling quasi-anarchist, you might not favor this kind of thing.

What I've personally always considered America's strength was its ability to ingest other cultures rather than force everyone to conform to some idea of "American" culture. That's how you can get America's rich musical tradition, for example. If we forced everyone to play saxophone instead of the accordion we'd never have Zydeco.

I do think we need to be careful of clearly destructive cultural tendencies. Religious fundamentalism. Nationalism. Homophobia. Misogyny. Racism. But it's obvious that even our own culture has problems with this stuff.

So I sort of worry when we start talking about "assimilation". To me, that feels like forcing people to live and think a certain way, when I think it's more beneficial for us to learn to live and think in a new way together.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#118

Post by camgunz »

Sir_Vival wrote: post #89
moorhosj wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigration is at generationally low levels, I don’t see how you could blame it for lack of wage increases. What about the stagnant minimum wage, record corporate profits or union busting; might they play a role? “American society” and “our values” are by-products of immigration, how would more immigrants ruin that?

I'll give you a firm example. I'm close to a town of 20,000 in rural Minnesota, and the biggest employer is a well known turkey company. Their plants used to be staffed with primarily native (and being in Minnesota, white) people. It was menial, hard labor but it paid well because of that. By the 90s the plant was primarily staffed by illegal Mexican immigrants, and now it's almost entirely Somalians. The jobs are re…

It's just as much the result of the lack of a meaningful minimum wage and reasonable labor standards. Another perfectly acceptable way to have fixed this would have been for Republicans to accept living wage and labor standards laws, and not have spent the last 40 some years waging war on unions.

I'll say it again. Study after study shows that immigration -- illegal or otherwise -- has very little effect on wages. Mechanization and "pro-business" policy is basically all of it.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#119

Post by moorhosj »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #116
moorhosj wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still haven't proven that immigration is the cause of this particular wage stagnation. You want to believe it is, but you haven't given evidence. Is there proof that non-immigrants even want to do this work? The well-known case from Georgia suggests they don't. https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/05/17/the-law-of-... At the same time, couldn't the state just raise the minimum wage?

He says they used to, but wages didn't keep up.

Immigration hasn’t kept up either, so how can it be the driver?

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#120

Post by mixmastamyk »

moorhosj wrote: post #119
mixmastamyk wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He says they used to, but wages didn't keep up.

Immigration hasn’t kept up either, so how can it be the driver?

Why do you think it hasn’t kept up? Perhaps legal hasn’t. CA is a very different place than the one I grew up in.
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