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Startup crisis. Dorm room style.

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Re: Startup crisis. Dorm room style.

#21
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

rms, why do you think jfornear will need to recode? (S)he hasn't signed over the copyright, and there is no mention of it having been discussed in the verbal agreement. And the bulk of it was copy and pasted. The 'customers' cannot copyright the idea, although they may have explicitly stated that part of the discussion consisted of trade secrets. This is rather different from the Facebook case, where there was pre-ex…

IANAL, but it sounds like it's work-for-hire. If you pay someone to do work (particularly by the hour), it's my understanding that they own the intellectual property you generate.

Except this was for a class project, so it's possible the school owns the IP, and if a venture comes out of it, he company will have to ask the school for a license.

Re: Startup crisis. Dorm room style.

#22
Don't be afraid of the lawyer dad. Keep in mind that lawyers want to make things complicated so that only they understand them. (That is not really true, but it saves time to think that way.)

They made you an offer. You rejected it, smartly. Now it is time for your counter-offer. You already mentioned several downsides to their offer (you can't understand it, no equity, too low pay, probably lots of personal liability for you). You already mentioned that you don't even need this deal (because you are young and you could be doing other things).

I don't understand why you don't see your own leverage here. He wants you to do work RIGHT NOW. If he needs the work done right now, then he will capitulate to your demands, if you have the guts to make any. The first thing you need to do is STOP WORKING RIGHT NOW.

Then, throw away the 17 page contract and write a 1 page contract of your own, where (a) you disclaim all liability, (b) you can walk away at any time, (c) you get significant equity (if you are doing all the work, you should be getting at least 50%), and (d) you get paid a real wage ($20 an hour is not a real wage for a programmer). Give him that one-page contract and tell him to sign it if he wants you to continue working on the project.

He will object. He will want to make changes to the contract. You have the leverage, so tell him no. Definitely do not let his dad insert anything into it--you must write every word yourself, in crisp, clear, English.

If you can convince him to agree to a contract where you have no significant risk and you have significant benefits, then the deal can continue. Otherwise, you have to walk away, because his lawyer is too big of a problem. (Notice that this turns the tables so that his dad is a liability for him, not an asset.)

You might think that it is not possible to convince somebody to sign a contract where you have no risk and you receive a lot of benefits. Not True. I've done it twice on contract programming gigs. Each time, the (small) company signed the contract because they needed something RIGHT NOW. Then came back later with changes suggested (demanded) by their lawyer. I rejected all changes (think "I am not willing to sign anything except the backs of my checks"), they got mad, and they either canceled the project (1 time), or got over it (1 time). You just have to stand firm.

Personally, I still wouldn't take the deal because it sounds like your "partner" is adversarial. The point I am trying to make is that you don't have to be scared of lawyers, and there is no need to be intimidated when you have all the leverage.

Re: Startup crisis. Dorm room style.

#23

First: recognize that you made a mistake here. Accepting the money without a contract is only going to confuse things. Pay the money back, (borrow from the First National Bank of Mom and Dad if you have to). While doing so, tell Roomie (and RoomieDad) that you want equity. Explain that you like the idea, and think you have a lot to contribute. Also explain that if they're not interested in giving you equity, that's c…

It sounds like you're not that far into the project, so if that's correct, I wouldn't even worry about what happens to the modest amounts of IP you've already written. If they can't do this project without you, all you have to do to regain control of the situation is stop working on it until everyone has agreed to terms you're comfortable with.

I agree that you don't want to be adversarial -- just explain that you're not comfortable with those terms, that you hope you can work something out with them that makes sense for everyone, and if you can't, wish them luck with their project.

Two things to remember: first, if something can't get sorted out amicably, these aren't the right people to be working with anyway, so you're better off finding that out up front. Second, if you're the only one who can deliver a product, you're always the one holding the cards.

Good luck.

Re: Startup crisis. Dorm room style.

#24

First: recognize that you made a mistake here. Accepting the money without a contract is only going to confuse things. Pay the money back, (borrow from the First National Bank of Mom and Dad if you have to). While doing so, tell Roomie (and RoomieDad) that you want equity. Explain that you like the idea, and think you have a lot to contribute. Also explain that if they're not interested in giving you equity, that's c…

That is his money, not theirs. He doesn't need to pay it back to demand changes to the agreement (equity or otherwise). And he gets nothing if he gives it back.

Since he did the work for hire the IP rights belong to the partner, not to him. At least, he doesn't have the ability to win a court case there due to the mismatch in legal representation.

Again, do not let the dad write even one word of the contract. Signing the dad's contract will be way worse than walking away from the project.

Re: Startup crisis. Dorm room style.

#25
If you've been paid, then they own what you gave them in exchange for the money. Assuming you've met your contractual obligations, you don't have to type one more line of code from here.

You should tell them the truth: you've reconsidered the potential of the project and you want to re-negotiate for continued involvement. They have the option of hiring someone else to pick up where you left off. If they exercise that option, then move on to another project. You probably learned something and made some cash.

If you ask me, the dad probably wasn't thinking "I'm gonna screw this programmer as hard as I can! muahaha!". It was probably more like "I want to make sure that my son doesn't pay some guy to make a website, then have him copy it and put up a competitor".

Just tell the truth and state your point of view and it'll probably work out fine.

Re: Startup crisis. Dorm room style.

#26
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but it sounds like it's work-for-hire. If you pay someone to do work (particularly by the hour), it's my understanding that they own the intellectual property you generate.

Except this was for a class project, so it's possible the school owns the IP, and if a venture comes out of it, he company will have to ask the school for a license.

exactly. i just finished creating an application for a doctor, but since it was done as part of my master's program, the school owns the code. this means that though the doctor may have aspirations of turning it into a million-dollar product, he can't without working out a deal with my university. i'd be very surprised if this guy's school doesn't have a similar policy regarding code written for its classes. i think it's likely that the contract the other person's lawyer dad drew up is moot--the school probably already owns all (or most) rights to the stuff.

Re: Startup crisis. Dorm room style.

#27
lawyers charge $150-thousands of dollars per hour. For you to get legal council on this would require an expense of more than $400. If they want you to sign a 17 page legal document, ask for 17 * $650 an hour for your lawyer to read it and give you advice. I think they will get the point!

And then you can all go, get a beer, and discuss some reasonable terms like everyone else suggested.

Re: Startup crisis. Dorm room style.

#28
You already agreed to this via verbal contract to the $400 maximum. I'm not sure where some of the other guys can say you should do anything.

Unless you stated you would keep on working for free after the $400 (which I think probably would be the softest point in the verbal agreement later even if you did), the best you can do is work until that contract expires and negotiate a better written one with equity.

Let me repeat: you verbally agreed to work when he offered to "pay [you] to work on his project". You need to do the best you can to meet that agreement because you agreed to the deal.

You need to return the contract to them and firmly state you did not agree to this during the verbal agreement. If he wants you to sign something more than you already verbally agreed, he has to negotiate. Be sure he understands you want equity opportunity during any renegotiation because you are interested in the site and want to continue to work to help it grow after the contract is over.

Re: Startup crisis. Dorm room style.

#29
An important aspect of negotiations is improving your BATNA (Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement). So what you most need to know is, if you walk away from this partnership, what encumbrances are there on the IP that you produced without a contract?

I think that since you never did sign a written contract with your roommate that either explicitly transferred IP or contained the magic words "work-for-hire", you and/or your school still own the IP and the roommate just has a license to use it for his class project. But I'm not a lawyer and this is really the sort of thing you need a legal consultation for. Since there's a chance your school owns the IP, maybe someone in your school's technology licensing office would be willing to tell you where you stand for free. If not, your state bar association may have a referral service where you can get a brief consultation for a low (as lawyers go) fixed rate. (At least, that's what they have in Massachusetts.)

If you own the IP, then you can counteroffer from a much stronger bargaining position. That is, if you decide to pursue this arrangement at all; I tend to agree with the people who say this guy is not worth doing business with.

Re: Startup crisis. Dorm room style.

#30
post #13

Don't work with this guy. He's trying to take advantage of you. If his dad is a lawyer, you are going to be in a trouble if you actually get into some kind of a disagreement with the guy. He can say that you did in fact have a verbal agreement and that he showed you the papers and you agreed. $400 is very, cery little money if there is a possibility of legal fight involved and by giving you the contract he has laread…

...or the roommate may have perfectly good intentions, but his father's intervention is damaging the business relationship, and either the roommate doesn't recognize that's going on or can't tell his father to tone things down a bit.

Any way you interpret it, though, it's a warning sign.

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