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The Dangerous Fetishization of ‘Hustle Porn’

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Re: The Dangerous Fetishization of ‘Hustle Porn’

#141

Post by ryanmercer »

rawTruthHurts wrote: post #96
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being a founder has never been sexier Really? To whom? Being rich has always been sexy. Being busy working 70 hours a week not so much. Ask any partner of a workaholic.

> Being rich has always been sexy And on top of that, the guys come from an already well off background. They were able to invest all the time they wanted in their personal projects, as mundane problems like paying the rent were never issue to them.

>They were able to invest all the time they wanted in their personal projects, as mundane problems like paying the rent were never issue to them.

A million times this. Many, many, founders come from upper middle class families or better. Many of them have, or were earning, ivy league educations when they dropped out to run their funded businesses full-time. A good chunk of them have already exited at least 1 startup and are independently wealthy if they chose to live in most of the US, if not any city in the world.

It's easy to pour yourself into an idea when you're not worried about making your car insurance payment, making rent, hoping no personal emergency happens that you'll have to put on a credit card, it's a whole different story when you're lower middle class or lower and have no cushion. When you have no family to fall back on when things don't pan out.

Hustle is sexy when you have an exit, when you have a safety net, when you have a support system. Hustle is tantamount to slavery when you don't have these things. When hustle is a means of survival it can quickly become toxic, demoralizing, soul-crushing and even dangerous to your health but when you come from a position of means it's just a challenge, another way to get that adrenaline and endorphin release.

Re: The Dangerous Fetishization of ‘Hustle Porn’

#142

Post by pluma »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #18
rampage101 wrote: post #14

Saw this GaryV video where he was saying how he told a caller to 'eat shit' for the next 3 years, and he was proud of his advice to the caller. A woman called in saying she was working three jobs where one was her main income, and she had 2 side opportunities. Her basic question was which one to pick. He told her 'eat shit' for the next couple years and take no vacations, just completely grind out her existence and n…

> He told her 'eat shit' for the next couple years and take no vacations I did this for three years. It sucks, and my god is it a roll of the dice with your health, wealth and happiness. But for me, at the time, the risk of breaking was worth the chance at stability and autonomy. It’s terrible universal advice. But if wealth and power matter to you; and you diligently save, take sensible risks, and remain health- and…

It's only ever "worth it" if it works out. It's never "worth it" if it didn't.

This is basically the survivor fallacy: you didn't win because you risked ruining yourself, you won because you got lucky. Risking to ruin yourself just meant you increased your chances of winning (while also significantly increasing your chances of losing).

Teaching people they'll be successful as long as they're willing to "eat shit" for years may create a handful of winners but it will also cause a ridiculous amount of ruined lives (not to mention families and relationships).

Imagine playing Russian roulette with only one empty chamber but afterwards everyone who survives also gets a toin coss to determine if he also wins a billion dollars on top.

Sure, if you win, it was totally worth it because you came out of it unharmed and you have a billion dollars.

If you win the roulette but lose the coin toss, hey at least you were ever so close to winning the billion dollars. Maybe you'll write an inspiring blog post about how waking up before dawn and doing push-ups helped you come that far and about your plans to win that coin toss if you get another chance in the future.

Or you are sour about losing the coin toss and traumatised from the roulette but people now just lecture you about how you held the coin wrong and you should be lucky you even made it to the coin toss because if you fumbled the coin toss you really weren't skilled enough to win the roulette or you should have played for a few more rounds after nobody else was left because then you'd have definitely performed better at tossing that coin.

But if you lose the roulette, you're probably in no state to lament to anyone how terrible of an idea it was to play in the first place.

And if you look at the really successful ones, you'll notice they actually sometimes shot themselves but their parents or family were rich enough to make sure they wore a bullet-proof helmet.

It's luck. Risking your health and social life just slightly increases the number of coin tosses while loading more bullets in the chamber. Look at how many entrepreneurs are putting themselves out there and working themselves to death, then look at how many are billionaires -- heck, look at how many are millionaires. The rest that just vanishes? At best they gave up and decided to do something else.

Re: The Dangerous Fetishization of ‘Hustle Porn’

#143

Post by logicchains »

CompelTechnic wrote: post #132
logicchains wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who think hustling is about working hard have a very different interpretation of the word than I'm used to. A hustler is supposed to be a cunning character who uses their guile and persistence to get ahead, taking advantage of the system. Someone who just works really hard at the expense of their health sounds more like what I'd expect to see characterised as a schmuck than a hustler.

I think both connotations are valid and context usually determines the underlying meaning. For a third connotation that is close to the GP's, think of a coach telling his players to hustle on the basketball court. To me, that means they need to play hard and quick, not that they need to try more to bend the rules, take advantage, etc.

>For a third connotation that is close to the GP's, think of a coach telling his players to hustle on the basketball court. To me, that means they need to play hard and quick, not that they need to try more to bend the rules, take advantage, etc.

That's interesting, I always assumed the coach was actually suggesting they try to bend the rules and do whatever's necessary to win, but your interpretation makes more sense.

Re: The Dangerous Fetishization of ‘Hustle Porn’

#144

Post by pluma »

themagician wrote: post #11
knaik94 wrote: post #6

The problem with hustle porn is really how little emphasis is put on luck. They show a grind that translates directly into results, not really talking about dealing with failure due to things outside of one's control. Yes hard work gets you primed for new opportunities, but luck still plays a role in which opportunities you come across.

That’s the American way though. Individual success, socialized failure.

Luckily our fellow libertarians are busy promoting "individual success, individualized failure" as an alternative.

Because if you're a failure, it shouldn't be our job to provide for you or pay for your recovery, right? Right?

/s

Re: The Dangerous Fetishization of ‘Hustle Porn’

#145

Post by pluma »

paulpauper wrote: post #35
andrewl wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luck is a part of it for sure. And survivorship bias isn't usually discussed in motivational stories. XKCD has something on it: https://xkcd.com/1827/

No one wants to listen to a Ted talk in which a successful person attributes his success to luck (although in invoking Cunningham's law I'm sure one exists)

...which begs the question, what is the point of a Ted talk about success stories if they're really just stories of being lucky without admitting that fact?

It's a nice bedtime story, yeah, but people look at this crap for inspiration and guidance. "I want to be like that guy" except nothing in the story can be replicated to recreate the same outcome.

EDIT: Is "envy porn" a phrase yet?

Re: The Dangerous Fetishization of ‘Hustle Porn’

#147

Post by RugnirViking »

whatshisface wrote: post #47
_zskd wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. This exactly. Or, if not ability, then experience and wisdom. Or relevant skills. Or connections. Or discipline. None of which you can manifest by sheer force of will. I always tell my Jr. Engineers that if you have to work THAT HARD to accomplish your daily tasks then you need to go back to school or go for a more newbie-friendly position.

> Or discipline. None of which you can manifest by sheer force of will. Having discipline is the same thing as having force of will.

Its interesting that you've been down voted. I'm not suggesting that you are correct or wrong, but I'd geniunely like to hear a philosopher or somesuch clever thinker talk at length on this topic - are they the same? are they different? is the ability to get through a difficult physical experience such as pain related to being able to work at a task you show no interest in for hours? Is it a single trait that you either have or don't, or do some people have remarkable discipline when it comes to office work and others are disciplined when it comes to gardening or cooking for hours with passion all day every day? Is it something that is geniunely in a person's character, or is it to do with other things (do people with discpline just get more sleep/have a better upbringing/have interesting work to do etc?)

I don't want to pass any judgement nor assume the answers to any of these questions - I'd like to see/hear/read discussion on it.

Re: The Dangerous Fetishization of ‘Hustle Porn’

#148

Post by RugnirViking »

JimboOmega wrote: post #32
userbinator wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

something else is off - the idea isn't good enough, you're attacking it in the wrong way, whatever. ...and don't forget the fact that seems almost taboo to say these days: you just don't have the ability.

What hussle porn is selling most of all is agency. That you can get whatever it is you want through some actions you can take.

I really like this interpretation, but to take it at face value would be to assume that other approaches do not offer actionable steps? or at the very least do not suggest that their steps actually work? Naturally it's correct that no matter what you do you don't always suceed, but does the fact that people eat this up suggest that for most people there are no actions they can take to be successful?

Re: The Dangerous Fetishization of ‘Hustle Porn’

#149

Post by ken »

It's easy to say that this is the best possible time for a human to be alive, when your occupation is motivational speaker. You've got YouTube, and business class, and 7-minute workouts. The message you've got is to disregard the media you're using to send that message.

Try working in a field where this isn't true, and tell us if you still think this is the best time ever to be a human. Do high school teachers (who have to compete with the internet) think 2018 is the greatest?

Re: The Dangerous Fetishization of ‘Hustle Porn’

#150

Post by jklein11 »

_zskd wrote: post #44
userbinator wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

something else is off - the idea isn't good enough, you're attacking it in the wrong way, whatever. ...and don't forget the fact that seems almost taboo to say these days: you just don't have the ability.

Yes. This exactly. Or, if not ability, then experience and wisdom. Or relevant skills. Or connections. Or discipline. None of which you can manifest by sheer force of will. I always tell my Jr. Engineers that if you have to work THAT HARD to accomplish your daily tasks then you need to go back to school or go for a more newbie-friendly position.

>I always tell my Jr. Engineers that if you have to work THAT HARD to accomplish your daily tasks then you need to go back to school or go for a more newbie-friendly position.

I don't think that this is very productive thing to say to someone. If the Junior Engineer is still able to produce, why do you care how much they struggled with it? If a person truly wants to grow and then struggling on problems that are on the edge of their comfort zone sounds like the perfect way to do it.

If their abilities are effecting project timelines, quality, profitability, etc then I can understand having that conversation with them but I really don't see the harm in someone challenging themselves professionally.

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