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In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

nytimes.com

71–80 of 102 posts

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#71

Sadly, the Chinese government has less incentive to let the poor survive. It’s a cold, heartless form of population control. There are government officials who have come to the conclusion that delaying or not providing drugs for things like cancer will eventually help keep the country stable financially. In a country the size of China, they simply can’t afford to let everyone live to 85.

Denying medical treatment was used as a form of torture in the Mao years:

Liu Shaoqi was a Chinese revolutionary, politician, and theorist. He was Chairman of the NPC ... Originally groomed as Mao's successor, Liu antagonized him in the early 1960s before the .... He was denied medicine for his diabetes, by then a long-term illness, and for pneumonia, which he developed after his arrest.

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#72

Sadly, the Chinese government has less incentive to let the poor survive. It’s a cold, heartless form of population control. There are government officials who have come to the conclusion that delaying or not providing drugs for things like cancer will eventually help keep the country stable financially. In a country the size of China, they simply can’t afford to let everyone live to 85.

You probably watched too much Fox news. This is just a Chinese version of dallas buyers club.

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#73
post #50

I used to run an outbound medical tourism consultancy in China. Another NYT China hitpiece. Fact: This is not limited to China, it is a global phenomenon driven by the extreme profiteering of big pharma. I have personally seen medical systems in other countries leak legitimate medicines on the open market through fake 'patients' at hospitals. In addition: China has WAY more drug companies than any other country, and…

Yeah, India is very forward thinking about generics.[1] Ranbaxy executives didn’t care, says Kathy Spreen, and made little effort to conceal it. In a conference call with a dozen company executives, one brushed aside her fears about the quality of the AIDS medicine Ranbaxy was supplying for Africa. “Who cares?” he said, according to Spreen. “It’s just blacks dying.” [1] https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/…

There were consequences to this. There was an uproar over this in India at the time. Ranbaxy paid 500 million in settlement in felony charges related to drug safety. Finally, the company was acquired by Sun Pharma who fired most of the executives and staff.

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#74
This will be the normal state in India too if we buckle to US lobbying and capitalist pressure. There is extraordinary and continuous (every-day) compulsion on Indian diplomats, trade officials and politicians to keep expanding the scope of the Patents Act, reduce the scope of generics, and decrease the 'innovation threshold' of what can be patented so as to allow continuous ever-greening of drugs. I am not confident that the Indian government can withstand this in the long term.

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#75

Sadly, the Chinese government has less incentive to let the poor survive. It’s a cold, heartless form of population control. There are government officials who have come to the conclusion that delaying or not providing drugs for things like cancer will eventually help keep the country stable financially. In a country the size of China, they simply can’t afford to let everyone live to 85.

> Sadly, the Chinese government has less incentive to let the poor survive. It’s a cold, heartless form of population control. [...]

I have some friends who lived in Canada for a while. They said the Canadian medical system doesn't go all-out to treat people with cancer, which is probably just as well. Someone I knew (United States) just passed away from cancer. She spent 3 years getting treated, then died after a single day on hospice care. Medicare paid in full, I'm sure: that final operation was not a success, but the doctors were paid anyways.

Everyone dies eventually. American doctors are trained to try all the interventions they can possibly think of in a futile effort to prevent the inevitable. If my grandparents would have had to pay for their final months of interventions themselves, they certainly would have chosen to leave the funds in their estate. But since Medicare was paying they begrudgingly went along for the ride.

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#76
post #3

>”You just hope the sellers have a conscience.” Yeah, having dealt with Chinese vendors and mfgs for years that is a scary scenario. The whole culture of trust / fairness / honesty is very different from the west. Dealt with our products being knocked off for years, wouldn’t want to buy cancer meds ever!

One just needs to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal to see that some seemingly didn't even care if they killed babies...

https://www.unz.com/runz/chinese-melamine-and-american-vioxx...

> consider the details of the Chinese infant formula scandal of 2008. Unscrupulous businessmen had discovered they could save money by greatly diluting their milk products, then adding a plastic chemical compound called melamine to raise the apparent protein content back to normal levels. Nearly 300,000 babies throughout China had suffered urinary problems, with many hundreds requiring lengthy hospitalization for kidney stones. Six died. A wave of popular outrage swept past the controlled media roadblocks and initial government excuses, and soon put enormous pressure on Chinese officials to take forceful action against the wrongdoers.

> China’s leaders may not be democratically elected, but they pay close attention to strong popular sentiment. Once pressed, they quickly launched a national police investigation which led to a series of arrests and uncovered evidence that this widespread system of food adulteration had been protected by bribe-taking government officials. Long prison sentences were freely handed out and a couple of the guiltiest culprits were eventually tried and executed for their role, measures that gradually assuaged popular anger. Indeed, the former head of the Chinese FDA had been executed for corruption in late 2007 under similar circumstances.

> In September 2004, Merck, one of America’s largest pharmaceutical companies, suddenly announced that it was voluntarily recalling Vioxx, its popular anti-pain medication widely used to treat arthritis-related ailments. This abrupt recall came just days after Merck discovered that a top medical journal was about to publish a massive study by an FDA investigator indicating that the drug in question greatly increased the risk of fatal heart attacks and strokes and had probably been responsible for at least 55,000 American deaths during the five years it had been on the market.

> Within weeks of the recall, journalists discovered that Merck had found strong evidence of the potentially fatal side-effects of this drug even before its initial 1999 introduction, but had ignored these worrisome indicators and avoided additional testing, while suppressing the concerns of its own scientists. Boosted by a television advertising budget averaging a hundred million dollars per year, Vioxx soon became one of Merck’s most lucrative products, generating over $2 billion in yearly revenue. Merck had also secretly ghostwritten dozens of the published research studies emphasizing the beneficial aspects of the drug and encouraging doctors to widely prescribe it, thus transforming science into marketing support. Twenty-five million Americans were eventually prescribed Vioxx as an aspirin-substitute thought to produce fewer complications.

> Although the Vioxx scandal certainly did generate several days of newspaper headlines and intermittently returned to the front pages as the resulting lawsuits gradually moved through our judicial system, the coverage still seemed scanty relative to the number of estimated fatalities, which matched America’s total losses in the Vietnam War. In fact, the media coverage often seemed considerably less than that later accorded to the Chinese infant food scandal, which had caused just a handful of deaths on the other side of the world.

Killing an old person 7 years before they would otherwise die is not as bad as killing an infant 78 years before it would otherwise die. But is it really less than 0.1% as bad?

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#77

>”You just hope the sellers have a conscience.” Yeah, having dealt with Chinese vendors and mfgs for years that is a scary scenario. The whole culture of trust / fairness / honesty is very different from the west. Dealt with our products being knocked off for years, wouldn’t want to buy cancer meds ever!

And this is what the Socisl Credit System is trying to solve. It’s also interesting how saying Chinese people are so different is widely accepted on HN. Can you imagine if the same comment was made about Jewish people? I do hear others say the Chinese are the Jews of the East. And “having dealt with Jewish vendors and mfgs for years that is a scary scenario. The whole culture of trust / fairness / honesty is very dif…

> I do hear others say the Chinese are the Jews of the East.

Sure, if the Jews were most of the population of the US and Europe instead of being about 2%.

The Hakka are the Jews of the East. (Or, in India, the Parsis are.)

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are yuaigongwu and 51qiji. They have helped numerous patients in China. To be fair, they are mostly patient forums helping each other and most of the medicine for cancer can be purchased with discount in China. They are less expensive than the US but still expensive which is why some poorer patients are seeking alternatives/self made medicine.

Thanks! Do you know who "Bean Spirit" is? I was going to guess 豆神 but not sure since spirit can be a lot of words.

憨豆精神 if you know chinese.. He was legendary and inspired many ppl including me. Sadly he passed away last year.

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#79
post #29
post #11

That's what you get if your governments give monopoly on making drugs to huge corporations. Patens and enormously costly "approvals" (rather than strict liability) are the root of the problem.

...and what do you think you get if you don't do those things? The answer is no drugs at all.

This is totally false, as there are other parties which are interested in developing new drugs: academic researchers, insurance companies, and patients. The drug research is paid for by patients and insured as it stands now, but the FDA/pharma cartel monopolized drug development using patents and the hugely expensive approval process. Now, pharmas are interested in profitable drugs which don't as much cure the diseases but rather allow mainenance of chronic conditions for years and years. Actual effective cures are not a priority. Interests of insurers and patients are quute different: they would love quick, cheap, and effective cures. It's all about incentives.

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#80

I used to run an outbound medical tourism consultancy in China. Another NYT China hitpiece. Fact: This is not limited to China, it is a global phenomenon driven by the extreme profiteering of big pharma. I have personally seen medical systems in other countries leak legitimate medicines on the open market through fake 'patients' at hospitals. In addition: China has WAY more drug companies than any other country, and…

> European big-pharma has discouraged generics and off-label, and has been assisted in this endeavor by the French state.

Regarding France, I find odd (hypocrite?) that the French state is pushing against generics abroad, whereas locally the (state-run) social security system and health ministry are pushing for generics, because they are cheaper (and thus cheaper to refund).

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