In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own • Hacker News Board

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#51

Post by refurb » Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 2:30 AM UTC

Scoundreller wrote: post #17

averros wrote: post #11

That's what you get if your governments give monopoly on making drugs to huge corporations. Patens and enormously costly "approvals" (rather than strict liability) are the root of the problem.

I don't think we'd have 99% of these novel clinical compounds if it weren't for patents. As for approvals, I don't know why we have each country doing its own approvals, instead of international groups that individuals can choose whether they want to trust or not. Are Europeans sufficiently different than Chinese, Indians, Australians, Canadians, Germans or Americans to warrant independent safety approvals? If they'r…

Well, considering the US avoided the thalidomide tragedy because they decided approval in Europe was t good enough, you’re unlikely to see a scenario where it gets approved simply because someone else approved it.

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#52

Post by refurb » Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 2:35 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #38

pkaye wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real question is who will pay for testing drug safety and efficacy. Take Auryxia which is literally ferric citrate. Its used by kidney patients to control phosphorus levels and boost iron. Why did it take so long to get tested and approved as a drug when the formula was "open source" for a long time? Well one company did the time and effort and suddenly it is considered a valuable drug. The value came from provin…

Drug tests are not inherently that expensive. FDA trials run about 1% of the cost of each new drug. https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2018/cost-of-clinic... The long line of failed drugs are the real issue.

No offense but the article you referenced is misleading.

Sure, just the trial might cost that little if it’s an orphan disease, but it’s also ignoring all the other stuff that goes along with running a trial. Things like manufacturing, compliance, data analysis, etc.

When you look at the total cost of R&D for a drug, it’s typically 1/3 for discovery and 2/3 for development (clinical trials).

If your drug is used in any reasonable sized population, development is easily in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

You are correct about the failure rates though.

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#53

Post by stcredzero » Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 2:47 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #21

stcredzero wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, having dealt with Chinese vendors and mfgs for years that is a scary scenario. I've met contractors who did extensive work for businessmen in the US, who then turned around and told the contractor, "You want to be paid? Sue me!" The whole culture of trust / fairness / honesty is very different from the west. Is it really that different? There are some people who are good and some people who end up being opportu…

Imagine if google was in the business of faking cancer treatments with Army hospitals. That would basically be Baidu and the PLA.

Google is not that corrupt yet, thank goodness. However, to respond to the idea in the other comment: That Chinese people, Chinese society, or Chinese culture is somehow the root cause, I think we should be calling out Baidu and the PLA in particular.

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#54

Post by draw_down » Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 3:35 AM UTC

contingencies wrote: post #39

I used to run an outbound medical tourism consultancy in China. Another NYT China hitpiece. Fact: This is not limited to China, it is a global phenomenon driven by the extreme profiteering of big pharma. I have personally seen medical systems in other countries leak legitimate medicines on the open market through fake 'patients' at hospitals. In addition: China has WAY more drug companies than any other country, and…

The article is about what happens in China. It does not claim the phenomenon is exclusive to China.

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#55

Post by throwaway0943 » Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 3:52 AM UTC

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #2

>”You just hope the sellers have a conscience.” Yeah, having dealt with Chinese vendors and mfgs for years that is a scary scenario. The whole culture of trust / fairness / honesty is very different from the west. Dealt with our products being knocked off for years, wouldn’t want to buy cancer meds ever!

And this is what the Socisl Credit System is trying to solve.

It’s also interesting how saying Chinese people are so different is widely accepted on HN. Can you imagine if the same comment was made about Jewish people?

I do hear others say the Chinese are the Jews of the East.

And “having dealt with Jewish vendors and mfgs for years that is a scary scenario. The whole culture of trust / fairness / honesty is very different from the west.”

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#56

Post by vertline3 » Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 4:02 AM UTC

jjcc wrote: post #45

contingencies wrote: post #39

I used to run an outbound medical tourism consultancy in China. Another NYT China hitpiece. Fact: This is not limited to China, it is a global phenomenon driven by the extreme profiteering of big pharma. I have personally seen medical systems in other countries leak legitimate medicines on the open market through fake 'patients' at hospitals. In addition: China has WAY more drug companies than any other country, and…

The movie mentioned in the report triggered a lot of discussions online. One question that troubled many Chinese was: Why Chinese need to smuggle cheap drugs instead of producing their own equivalent. The difference is obviously the IP cost of drugs owned by the big pharma because Chinese companies have the capability to produce the drugs. Then why China can not violate those IPs while India can? A popular explanatio…

There was union carbide accident in the 1980's a tragedy.

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#57

Post by throwaway423443 » Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 4:29 AM UTC

contingencies wrote: post #39

I used to run an outbound medical tourism consultancy in China. Another NYT China hitpiece. Fact: This is not limited to China, it is a global phenomenon driven by the extreme profiteering of big pharma. I have personally seen medical systems in other countries leak legitimate medicines on the open market through fake 'patients' at hospitals. In addition: China has WAY more drug companies than any other country, and…

India is also under pressure from the American state to cut down on generics; European pressure is apparently more in terms of supposed "human rights" violations. There have been rumors that India will buckle to this pressure, but I'm not sure when this will be. India's economy is currently not in a decent state, and if it becomes inevitable for IMF/WB to come 'rescue' it, this will almost certainly be on the agenda.

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#58

Post by throwaway423443 » Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 4:34 AM UTC

jjcc wrote: post #45

contingencies wrote: post #39

I used to run an outbound medical tourism consultancy in China. Another NYT China hitpiece. Fact: This is not limited to China, it is a global phenomenon driven by the extreme profiteering of big pharma. I have personally seen medical systems in other countries leak legitimate medicines on the open market through fake 'patients' at hospitals. In addition: China has WAY more drug companies than any other country, and…

The movie mentioned in the report triggered a lot of discussions online. One question that troubled many Chinese was: Why Chinese need to smuggle cheap drugs instead of producing their own equivalent. The difference is obviously the IP cost of drugs owned by the big pharma because Chinese companies have the capability to produce the drugs. Then why China can not violate those IPs while India can? A popular explanatio…

Bhopal incident. It's easily one of the worth industrial accidents in the world, and the then PM whisked Union Carbide's head out of India, instead of prosecuting his firm for the cleanup. That hasn't stopped the Americans from lobbying though.

China routinely violates tech IPs by Americans' own reporting; I'm surprised as to why they'd not do the same for drugs.

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#59

Post by A2017U1 » Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 5:07 AM UTC

pleasebecivil wrote: post #49

markdown wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cutting corners to make items cheaper and make more money without govt regulation is capitalism and the end goal for the ruling American party (GOP). See their recent attacks on the EPA. > poisoning Americans is part of Chinese culture . WTF is wrong with you? Why are there humans on HN like you? BTW the Chinese who poisoned their own countrymen in pursuit of profit were put to death , while the Americans who do the…

Flint crisis is over.

I think you missed the point.

The Chinese melamine scandal is over too.

Re: In China, Desperate Patients Smuggle Drugs or Make Their Own

#60

Post by 3131s » Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 5:40 AM UTC

jasonbarrah wrote: post #25

markdown wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is "they"? This is a nation of almost 1.4 billion people. There are more unarmed civilians (including children) murdered by US police every year than all deaths from the Chinese milk scandal combined. Would that make it reasonable to state that "All US citizens have proved they have no conscience"? In any case, the Chinese milk scandal pales in comparison to what Nestle did: https://www.businessinsider.com/nestle…

This is just one example. There is also fentanyl, knock off prescription medication, and I've even gotten fake sex toys from China. The point is that stealing, lying, and poisoning Americans is part of Chinese culture. And what's worse is it appears that their state department is egging them on. So sure, there are Americans that do greedy things and have externalities. The problem is, it's China's stated national pol…

> The point is that stealing, lying, and poisoning Americans is part of Chinese culture.

That's a pretty repulsive sentiment, and it's rich too coming from an American like yourself. Not surprising that it garners plenty of upvotes on a cesspool like "Hacker" News.