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Leapfrogging the IDE

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Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#81

Post by lispm »

pjmlp wrote: post #17
geocar wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what Lisp developers have had since the early '80s We absolutely did not have a globally, network-accessible terminal with pay-as-you-go computer time. I have no experience or interest in repl.it, but I think you're understating things somewhat.

Lisp Machines and Xerox PARC workstations had network access. In fact, parts of Ethernet protocol were researched at Xerox.

Access, but usually they were not serving their IDE to the outside and there was only one active user per machine.

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#82

Post by erikpukinskis »

canterburry wrote: post #18

Coming from an enterprise background and having used Eclipse and IntelliJ for many years, I am honestly puzzled by the current trend in IDEs such as VS Code, Atom, etc. given their lack of fully features refactoring support, code search which goes beyond just simple text search, native understanding of classes, interfaces, method signatures etc. I have tried all of the above 'modern' editors and almost immediately fi…

For me it’s 99% about performance. IntelliJ is dog slow. I simply won’t accept an application with that level of cruft to run on my machine 24/7. Give me a simple text editor.

Also, if you have so many instances of a name in your codebase that you need automated tools to change it, and you haven’t already split that code out of the repo into a well named and stable library, I consider that a code smell. You’re building your house on jelly.

In the rare case I end up in that spot, I can use sed.

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#83

Post by pjmlp »

lispm wrote: post #81
pjmlp wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lisp Machines and Xerox PARC workstations had network access. In fact, parts of Ethernet protocol were researched at Xerox.

Access, but usually they were not serving their IDE to the outside and there was only one active user per machine.

True, but you could have document parts which were actually remote, no?

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#84

Post by kakarot »

thrower123 wrote: post #68
kakarot wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Webstorm provides all of the tools you need to customize your build, you don't have to use them at all but they're there when you need it. Webstorm integrates with popular build tools like Webpack and Gulp, and adds support for more tooling all of the time through plugins. There is really no reason to use another IDE for JS/TS unless you can't afford its very reasonable price.

Webstorm is essentially the only IDE that makes any sense for doing JS/TS work. Visual Studio is an unbelievable dog when you throw more than trivial amounts of JS code at it, to a degree that I cannot really understand, especially the apparently enormous resources that have been thrown at the problem in recent years. I routinely see VS splutter and die on smallish front-end projects when it runs like butter on six-f…

I run Webstorm in VM environments with 2-4GB RAM and 2-3 vCPUs and for the most part it's pretty smooth even with image editing programs and multiple browsers open.

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#85

Post by lispm »

pjmlp wrote: post #83
lispm wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Access, but usually they were not serving their IDE to the outside and there was only one active user per machine.

True, but you could have document parts which were actually remote, no?

sure, but how is this related to a global system where you login and get your IDE from? With a Lispm you already have your IDE locally running.

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#86

Post by poulsbohemian »

Bjartr wrote: post #80
poulsbohemian wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JetBrains offers a ~ $200/year subscription license that gives you all of their tools, for exactly that scenario, IE: I need python on this project, ruby on that one, etc. As a professional developer, $200/year is just a small business write-off and totally worth the money to have one set of tools that I can bring to bear on any project. So, you might check that out to overcome your licensing concern, if you prefer W…

Just checked, for individuals the "All Products Pack" is $250/yr. and for Organizations/Corporate use is $650/yr./user

Maybe I got a "repeat buyer" discount or something then. Either way - even at $650/year it's just the cost of doing business / immediately deducted from your taxes.

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#87

Post by zwaps »

So I know you wanted to frame this as IDE vs. REPL, but most IDEs have REPL built in (I think every Python IDE can open Jupyter notebooks no problem), and the additional features just depend on context. Like, scientific computing with Python, R or Matlab? You'll probably profit a lot from using RStudio, Spyder or, well, Matlab. Huge projects with lots of data and many files... why go through the pain of a html-based file management system if you can have as many text-editors and IDEs installed as you like... I mean, the choice you frame just isn't really a relevant question.

Instead, this is clearly a marketing article for your own product. You specifically ask the question in your article, why would anyone install an IDE locally, instead of using your product.

The answer seems very obvious to me: Only very few people can actually use an online interface, such as your product, in actual production.

For me, for example, it would be a non-starter. Not only do I work with sensitive data that I can't just upload to somewhere else, I am also often on the road and simply do not have guaranteed internet. So I'll need a local IDE anyway. Another reason is that the actual computing infrastructure is located, and protected, in a local network. So I couldn't even run my code directly. How much computing power do you actually provide? What if I actually generate large output files? Where do they go? Like, do you just send me gigabyte sized files over the tubes constantly? Do I have to download thousands of files from that terrible web-interface? How do you deal with changes in massive datasets? How do you deal with those data that need to stay local?

The whole article is just weird. The use-case for local IDEs is pretty clear, and I think the people who actually have to use some local solution is, and will be, larger than those who just casually write their code in your datasets. Most people would literally get fired for using your product as you suggest.

In fact I think the major use-case for your product is education and learning, specifically where you code in several languages. Like, you quote some kid asking why one would like to learn an IDE if repl.it is so cool and good. Well, that kid is obviously learning and not leapfrogging anything. Sooner or later, he/she will be coding in a company on a larger project and then all of the above applies.

I also like the irony of repl.it stating its support for Open Source, while apparently not being OpenSource itself.

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#88

Post by skybrian »

crispyambulance wrote: post #35
skybrian wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDE's tend to work best for people who work full time on a few projects and make complex edits. Then it's worth setting up the IDE properly, indexing the project, maintaining the IDE configuration, and learning the shortcuts. But if you are jumping into a lot of different projects that were written by a lot of different teams, and making tiny, local edits, configuring an IDE properly for each new project is a pain. S…

> It's hard to beat an editor for opening a file or directory you've never seen before and making a quick edit. You can be done before a more powerful IDE has even finished indexing the source code. I can't imagine this _ever_ being the case. Setup of an IDE is trivial compared to wrapping one's head around the first time look at a new project. I mean, you're talking about cracking open a new project you've never see…

A quick edit might be something shallow like changing a config setting, editing a template, or maybe fixing a bug where you have the stack trace and it's a one-line change. You can find the file to edit based on a search, make a quick patch, run tests, and send it for review by someone who understands the project better. Deep understanding is not required.

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#89

Post by kiklop74 »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #82
canterburry wrote: post #18

Coming from an enterprise background and having used Eclipse and IntelliJ for many years, I am honestly puzzled by the current trend in IDEs such as VS Code, Atom, etc. given their lack of fully features refactoring support, code search which goes beyond just simple text search, native understanding of classes, interfaces, method signatures etc. I have tried all of the above 'modern' editors and almost immediately fi…

For me it’s 99% about performance. IntelliJ is dog slow. I simply won’t accept an application with that level of cruft to run on my machine 24/7. Give me a simple text editor. Also, if you have so many instances of a name in your codebase that you need automated tools to change it, and you haven’t already split that code out of the repo into a well named and stable library, I consider that a code smell. You’re buildi…

Intellij can be made faster by: Using SSD Stuffing jdk on ramdisk Disabling inspectors you do not need

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#90

Post by yen223 »

pjmlp wrote: post #65
Koshkin wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, what you carry around and enjoy using so much is essentially a wireless terminal to a mainframe.

It is ironic how we rejoiced with the freedom from the mainframe just for the current generation to go happily back to it.

Especially since absolutely nothing has changed from then to now
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