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Leapfrogging the IDE

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Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#71

Post by zandl »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #32
zandl wrote: post #22

I can answer the question why switch if the limited online one is sufficient; it’s because the developer is working less efficiently and is unaware of the impact on productivity and code quality. I’ve seen this many times, variable renamed done with text replace or by hand, inconsistent formatting and headers, silly bugs that an ide could catch as you type get committed, switching between screens to test their code c…

From experience using atom to develop some perl integration scripts for ecommerce I found the variable completion and knowledge of perl very good. The trouble is these enterprise dev tools assume you have bleeding edge hardware. Back when I developed in Oracle we had to have special pc builds and then spend over £2000 on memory and more again to buy a 20inch monitor just to get it to work!- and it still crashed every…

Point being, if your computer isn’t doing the work then the human is, which has the most expensive compute cycles.

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#72

Post by hinkley »

rpeden wrote: post #19

A couple of observations: - Something like Light Table would probably seem like a step up for repl.it users, instead of a step down. - It can take a long time to reach the point where it feels like there's a big payoff from using IDEs and similar tool. Now , I definitely see the value of being able to do something like set a breakpoint in Visual Studio, step through a bit of code and observer local values changing, a…

I see a lot of Chesterton’s fence/self fulfillment around text editor folks.

I don’t care if you use a text editor but I do care if you make design and process decisions that mute or erode the power of IDEs.

There are ways to organize code and modules such that you have to have a mental model of the entire system because they sabotage the static analysis that IDEs build much of their functionality off of. Don’t do that and we’re fine. Do that and we have a problem.

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#74

Post by poulsbohemian »

heisenbit wrote: post #67
canterburry wrote: post #18

Coming from an enterprise background and having used Eclipse and IntelliJ for many years, I am honestly puzzled by the current trend in IDEs such as VS Code, Atom, etc. given their lack of fully features refactoring support, code search which goes beyond just simple text search, native understanding of classes, interfaces, method signatures etc. I have tried all of the above 'modern' editors and almost immediately fi…

I've been using WebStorm and find myself using more and more VSCode which seems to be catching up. The three key differences for me are 1) licensing (working in different environments and can not always bring my own tooling or get tooling for the team fast enough to make it worth my while). 2) State: VSCode may not have a in depth model of what is going on but I can point it anywhere and get immediately some level of…

JetBrains offers a ~ $200/year subscription license that gives you all of their tools, for exactly that scenario, IE: I need python on this project, ruby on that one, etc. As a professional developer, $200/year is just a small business write-off and totally worth the money to have one set of tools that I can bring to bear on any project. So, you might check that out to overcome your licensing concern, if you prefer WebStorm et. al over VSCode.

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#75

Post by erikpukinskis »

zandl wrote: post #22

I can answer the question why switch if the limited online one is sufficient; it’s because the developer is working less efficiently and is unaware of the impact on productivity and code quality. I’ve seen this many times, variable renamed done with text replace or by hand, inconsistent formatting and headers, silly bugs that an ide could catch as you type get committed, switching between screens to test their code c…

I’ve been coding for 20 years. You are correct that some people would speed up in an IDE but it’s more complicated than that. Many people are slowed down by their IDE.

I see IDEs largely as a symptom of the complexity sickness in software development. Companies take a strategy of letting complexity grow to the point where it can’t be controlled. IDEs and other tools for managing massive complexity emerge, because you need such tools to work in codebasses that have become a hurricane of complexity.

There is another path, where you choose to use simpler tools and adapt your plans to fit the tools. This is how the Amish work and they are able to do incredible works and be highly productive.

So, yes. You can try to become like “iron man”, wrapped in tools of immense complexity to match the tasks you set yourself to.

Or you can be like a Japanese carpenter and study and think and refine so that you can do only small tasks, with simple tools, and see miraculous detail emerge from the compounding interest of consistent daily practice.

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#76

Post by FridgeSeal »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #75
zandl wrote: post #22

I can answer the question why switch if the limited online one is sufficient; it’s because the developer is working less efficiently and is unaware of the impact on productivity and code quality. I’ve seen this many times, variable renamed done with text replace or by hand, inconsistent formatting and headers, silly bugs that an ide could catch as you type get committed, switching between screens to test their code c…

I’ve been coding for 20 years. You are correct that some people would speed up in an IDE but it’s more complicated than that. Many people are slowed down by their IDE. I see IDEs largely as a symptom of the complexity sickness in software development. Companies take a strategy of letting complexity grow to the point where it can’t be controlled. IDEs and other tools for managing massive complexity emerge, because you…

There are features in PyCharm that I have found so, so useful, that I refuse to write Python in anything else.

When Julia and Rust get support that good I’ll never have to use a text editor + plugins again; and I will be very pleased (even though the Rust sublime text plugin is very nice).

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#77

Post by zandl »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #75
zandl wrote: post #22

I can answer the question why switch if the limited online one is sufficient; it’s because the developer is working less efficiently and is unaware of the impact on productivity and code quality. I’ve seen this many times, variable renamed done with text replace or by hand, inconsistent formatting and headers, silly bugs that an ide could catch as you type get committed, switching between screens to test their code c…

I’ve been coding for 20 years. You are correct that some people would speed up in an IDE but it’s more complicated than that. Many people are slowed down by their IDE. I see IDEs largely as a symptom of the complexity sickness in software development. Companies take a strategy of letting complexity grow to the point where it can’t be controlled. IDEs and other tools for managing massive complexity emerge, because you…

The Japanese carpenter has wisdom that allows him to to judge the right level of complexity vs simplicity. But the new generation of developers don’t have that, it’s just ordinary ignorance and is why someone was asking in the article.

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#78

Post by FridgeSeal »

lolsal wrote: post #54
Filligree wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They still would not be nearly as fast. When I'm working with projects consisting of hundreds of files measuring hundreds of lines each, I need an IDE that's capable of using the full performance of my workstation

A counter-argument to this is that all files you need are stored in 'the cloud' and performing searches/indexing/refactoring would happen _faster_ than on your workstation because it can take advantage of a lot more 'cloud' resources.

My work computer is 8 cores, 32gb and a GPU; why do you imagine that a hosted instance somewhere running the web server is going to do a better or faster job than my local computer? Hell, even my laptop is going to do a better job than a cloud server.

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#79

Post by canterburry »

wild_preference wrote: post #24
canterburry wrote: post #18

Coming from an enterprise background and having used Eclipse and IntelliJ for many years, I am honestly puzzled by the current trend in IDEs such as VS Code, Atom, etc. given their lack of fully features refactoring support, code search which goes beyond just simple text search, native understanding of classes, interfaces, method signatures etc. I have tried all of the above 'modern' editors and almost immediately fi…

Ranges from language to language. For example, VS Code pulls TypeScript definitions of your JavaScript dependencies and thus has superior intellisense. Also, the plugin ecosystem uses JavaScript, so it tends to be more cutting edge, especially if you're working on a JavaScript project (i.e. same language as plugins). For example, VS Code and Atom had Prettier code-formatting when IDEA didn't. And they sometimes have…

No, I meant literally junior developers who join organizations fresh and are immediately steered towards VS Code, Atom, Sublime by their organization and not even provided Eclipse/IntelliJ as an option.

Re: Leapfrogging the IDE

#80

Post by Bjartr »

poulsbohemian wrote: post #74
heisenbit wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using WebStorm and find myself using more and more VSCode which seems to be catching up. The three key differences for me are 1) licensing (working in different environments and can not always bring my own tooling or get tooling for the team fast enough to make it worth my while). 2) State: VSCode may not have a in depth model of what is going on but I can point it anywhere and get immediately some level of…

JetBrains offers a ~ $200/year subscription license that gives you all of their tools, for exactly that scenario, IE: I need python on this project, ruby on that one, etc. As a professional developer, $200/year is just a small business write-off and totally worth the money to have one set of tools that I can bring to bear on any project. So, you might check that out to overcome your licensing concern, if you prefer W…

Just checked, for individuals the "All Products Pack" is $250/yr. and for Organizations/Corporate use is $650/yr./user
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