Live data from Hacker News

Reasons to Fear Another ‘Great War’

bloomberg.com

21–30 of 400 posts

Re: Reasons to Fear Another ‘Great War’

#21
post #7

Without the US's involvement in global trade Europe & Asia will likely erupt in war again. The US would be immune to most of the violence though.

What is it about trade that you suppose would protect us, this time around? In the run-up to the Great War all of the European powers, as well as the U.S., were engaged in vigorous trade with each other. That did nothing to prevent the onset of war.

It's not trade, it's US facilitated trade via the Bretton Woods system which has enabled free trade between countries that previously went to war over resources (among other things). Much of global trade is facilitated and protected by US empire.

I'm not being jingoistic, and am very cynical about US intentions, practices and policies, but the reality is that without US military hegemony, countries that fought for resources, like on the NEP, might again.

Re: Reasons to Fear Another ‘Great War’

#22

How is it possible to write this article without mentioning MAD? The presence of nuclear self defense is what keeps nuclear armed nations from engaging in aggressive wars with other nuclear armed nations.

    The presence of nuclear self defense is what keeps nuclear armed nations from engaging in aggressive wars with other nuclear armed nations.
The US and Russia are already in the midst of several proxy wars: Ukraine, Syria and Libya. In addition, Russia is directly destabilizing Europe by funding alt-right parties financially (AfD/DE, FrontNational/FR, FPÖ/Austria, Jobbik/HU, Lega Nord/IT) and by promoting their crap on Twitter and Facebook, as well as their "media outlets" that historically have spread alt-right propaganda (Sputnik, RT), but now have expanded to liberal/leftie propaganda (Inthenow, Ruptly, Redfish).

The Chinese seem to be playing the long game by strategically investing in infrastructure like roads and rail across Africa, probably both for strategic advantages (given Africa's large reserves of anything from rhino horns over diamonds and uranium to rare-earth metals) and economic advantages (the US and EU markets are saturated, South America is going down rapidly, but Africa can only grow and buy Chinese products in return - basically the Marshall Plan just without the war).

Also, both China and Russia engage in cyber warfare - the Chinese right now mostly for economic espionage, the Russians at the moment for destabilizing democracy.

What worries me is the shit some Arab countries are trying to play with Israel (esp. Turkey!) and the skirmishes between India and Pakistan, as well as Pakistan's problems with terrorism. Both countries are highly volatile and hell I don't want to experience the Taliban getting hands on Pakistani nukes.

So, there are LOTS of possibilities for nuclear-armed powers to go to war, and some not even violent. The key is that no power ever actively uses nuclear weapons, but there's nothing that prevents them from using conventional ammo. There's enough of that alone to blow the planet to pieces.

Re: Reasons to Fear Another ‘Great War’

#23
post #15
post #7

Without the US's involvement in global trade Europe & Asia will likely erupt in war again. The US would be immune to most of the violence though.

Seems like a reasonable analysis based on a careful study of the facts. Keep going.

Much of global trade is facilitated by the US military. If that support and protection is withdrawn, people will be more likely to dive into war over resources.

I'm not saying the US is _good_ because they prop up free trade. It's just empire 2.0, not some altruistic quest on the US's part.

Re: Reasons to Fear Another ‘Great War’

#24
post #11

How is it possible to write this article without mentioning MAD? The presence of nuclear self defense is what keeps nuclear armed nations from engaging in aggressive wars with other nuclear armed nations.

I don't really see MAD as being a given, especially depending on if China or the US develops rapid technological advancements over the next few decades. I think it's a really unlikely idea to assume the nuke will be the great deterrent or equalizer for the rest of this century. China could easily conquer the planet if they pull sufficiently ahead in China, which is a fair possibility, looking at the current state of…

>if they pull sufficiently ahead in China, which is a fair possibility, looking at the current state of the US and Europe

Be careful with extrapolation. People said the same thing about the USSR, Japan, and the EU.

Sure the US won't be as dominant as they are now forever, but extrapolating China's growth from a very poor developing country to their current level and assuming that means that they might make some kind of leap that allows them to take over the world is going too far.

Re: Reasons to Fear Another ‘Great War’

#25
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if cybersecurity could be counted as a 5th area, and if so, how far behind the US is.

The answer to the last part is "the US is probably in the lead or at least competitive to the lead." Keep in mind that Stuxnet is generally figured to be a joint American/Israeli cyberweapon.

Offensive and defensive capability.

Re: Reasons to Fear Another ‘Great War’

#26
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if cybersecurity could be counted as a 5th area, and if so, how far behind the US is.

The answer to the last part is "the US is probably in the lead or at least competitive to the lead." Keep in mind that Stuxnet is generally figured to be a joint American/Israeli cyberweapon.

The US is clearly in the lead wrt cyber weapons, but it also clearly has the most to lose. Whether the lead balances out the increased threat is anyone's guess.

Re: Reasons to Fear Another ‘Great War’

#28
> This is why the U.S. chose to stay so deeply engaged in the affairs of Europe

Aside from this rather endearing naivete, the gist of the article is fine: we need to fear another 'Great War'.

Modern warfare grants (perceived) first-strike capability to almost any state, rendering the power of MAD and military alliances close to negligible. We live in the 21st century now, things are different than before, and highly dangerous as long as states put their self-interest above our common global destiny, as is the attitude du jour.

People behave as if nothing bad can happen, it's highly frustrating to watch.

Re: Reasons to Fear Another ‘Great War’

#29
What's the point of war in the modern world?

Gain land/people? If there's a thriving economy there, war will probably change that quickly. If there's no thriving economy, what's the point?

You could try to exploit the people/resources there, but the profits in that seem (at least compared to a world power) pretty thin. Unskilled labor and unimproved land are just not worth what they used to be.

Specific resources might become dramatically more valuable. Seems not terribly likely with oil (more technology, more producers, more alternatives). Maybe water, but the obvious pressure for that would be population, which is somewhat leveling off (though maybe global warming would do it).

I would think any modern war would be very different and less bloody than we're used to. Some kind of weird power play that results in a takeover but is not disruptive enough to damage what was taken. Something more like Russia taking Crimea and less like Germany invading Poland.

Re: Reasons to Fear Another ‘Great War’

#30
post #13

How is it possible to write this article without mentioning MAD? The presence of nuclear self defense is what keeps nuclear armed nations from engaging in aggressive wars with other nuclear armed nations.

The U.S. and Russia have been signaling to each other recently that they would be willing to deploy low-yield nukes in a limited regional engagement. Anyway, MAD has very nearly failed on several occasions -- Cuban Missile Crisis, false alarms, etc.

The Cuban missile crisis is an example of MAD working as intended. If it weren't for the threat of nuclear war the Cuban missile crisis would have turned into the "Russian tanks in Paris and Marines in Havana crisis"
Post reply on HN