The War Inside 7-Eleven • Hacker News Board

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#71

Post by notacoward » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 6:14 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #3

While there seems like a desire to blame 7-Eleven here, they are completely right to not want to have their franchisees violating federal immigration laws. While they are insulated by the contractor-contractee relationship, the government is humourless about these sorts of things. The violations are easy to prove (either you have proper employment documentation or you don’t) and enforcement is politically popular. Th…

Selective enforcement even of an just law (or contract clause) is itself unjust. That's what the article's about - not that 7-11 is trying to enforce the rules, but that they are selectively enforcing against certain franchisees, and using taxpayer-funded muscle to do it.

Imagine if use of work computers for anything personal was a widely violated rule where you work, but the only people who ever seemed to get busted were the ones who had made complaints to HR, and they brought in the FBI to do it in the most intimidating and humiliating way possible. But hey, they did wrong, so the company's morally right? No.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#72

Post by notacoward » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 6:16 PM UTC

tomschlick wrote: post #22

jnbiche wrote: post #6

I know there are folks on here who will roll their eyes, but this kind of display is emblematic of a fascist government. Fascism is the bonding of state and corporate power, driven by nationalism, authoritarianism, and a (usually) charismatic leader. For the record, I'm not a radical. I'm not even particularly partisan. I'm an average, middle-class American. But I've read enough history to know which way the wind is…

> but this kind of display is emblematic of a fascist government Enforcing immigration law passed by a democratically elected congress is fascist? Really?

Yes, selectively enforcing laws to benefit one side in a business relationship is fascist.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#73

Post by vetinari » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 6:19 PM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #67

vetinari wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizens do matter, if the country has a social system, like the Europeans do. You can have either social support system, or open borders, but not both. It is unfair to those who built the system to open borders and deplete it on people, who neither built it, nor have intention to continue building it.

This rests on the assumption that immigrants "deplete systems" and that citizens don't. They're both just people. If anything, immigrants are generally above-average in terms of dedication (for one, there's a sampling bias because they've just travelled across countries to come to yours). Limiting access to contributory systems (e.g. having a state pension require contribution) is reasonable, preventing someone from…

The visa-regime borders are not mutually exclusive with migration either. Actually, it ensures, that the country gets the well-driven ones.

If you want to see, how to destroy a country fast, have look at the UN Global Compact for Migration. Social service-wise, it binds the countries to provide more for immigrants (even those entering illegally) than for their own citizens!

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#74

Post by moorhosj » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 6:24 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #63

moorhosj wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing the pie has always helped everyone in America. Is there something that has fundamentally changed in your view to alter this trend? Are there Americans out there who want to do these types of jobs?

The pie hasn’t grown for four decades [1], and the middle class has been hollowed out [2]. The existing system must be fixed before more burden is placed on it. A job not being filled in no way validates that someone should fill that job. Some jobs should not exist (anything where life and limb is constantly in significant peril, for example). We don't throw our hands up when we can't find workers to clean up nuclear…

==The pie hasn’t grown for four decades [1], and the middle class has been hollowed out [2]. The existing system must be fixed before more burden is placed on it.==

Your first chart doesn't show a stagnant pie, looking at GDP numbers disproves that theory. The pie has absolutely grown, corporations have just chosen to keep more of it.

The problem is that you are connecting these things directly to immigration and there isn't much evidence to back that up. You are taking a real problem (stagnating wages and fewer corporate profits going to workers) and shoehorning in an ideological belief to explain it. Your sources provide no evidence that immigration is to blame for either of these phenomena. They simple show that the phenomena exists.

==We don't throw our hands up when we can't find workers to clean up nuclear waste accidents. We build robots for the job.==

Wasn't your entire point that we are just hiring immigrants to do this work instead of building robots (your Wisconsin dairy example)?

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#75

Post by lupire » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

The real story here is that the business of large corporations, from 7-11 to Uber, is to outsource all their legal, financial, and safety risk, while keeping the profits. 7-11 regulates every aspect of a franchise business, and takes a large fee, but if the franchise breaks any law, 7-11 takes no responsibility. Imagine if every company ran that way, sending rank-and-file employees to jail, while management and limited-liability owners face no criminal or civil penalties because they "didn't know" their profits came from illegal activity. Or they didn't have to pay worker's comp for employees injured on the job. Or employees had to pay for all their supplies.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#76

Post by toomuchtodo » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

moorhosj wrote: post #74

toomuchtodo wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pie hasn’t grown for four decades [1], and the middle class has been hollowed out [2]. The existing system must be fixed before more burden is placed on it. A job not being filled in no way validates that someone should fill that job. Some jobs should not exist (anything where life and limb is constantly in significant peril, for example). We don't throw our hands up when we can't find workers to clean up nuclear…

==The pie hasn’t grown for four decades [1], and the middle class has been hollowed out [2]. The existing system must be fixed before more burden is placed on it.== Your first chart doesn't show a stagnant pie, looking at GDP numbers disproves that theory. The pie has absolutely grown, corporations have just chosen to keep more of it. The problem is that you are connecting these things directly to immigration and the…

> The pie has absolutely grown, corporations have just chosen to keep more of it.

Then the pie has not grown. You're simply advocating throwing more people on an already broken system.

> Wasn't your entire point that we are just hiring immigrants to do this work instead of building robots (your Wisconsin dairy example)?

My argument is that automation should be prioritized over subjugating illegal immigrants who have no recourse. Dairy farmers cannot afford to pay a legal wage, therefore automation is their only option if ICE shows up and prevents them from hiring illegal immigrants (the fact that the dairy industry is hideously broken and needs to shrink dramatically is a topic for another thread). I am pro-immigration when properly implemented, but staunchly anti-abuse of all people.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#77

Post by notacoward » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 6:44 PM UTC

will_brown wrote: post #70

jnbiche wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the article is that a unusually high number of businesses targeted for these actions happened to be critiques of corporate 7-Eleven, or engaged in lawsuits. And yes, I would worry likewise if it were taxes used as the underlying cause for these kinds of raids. Again, I'm explicitly not calling this "fascism". I said "emblematic of fascism". I actually don't think we've descended into fascism yet. But as…

You could call it “facisism” but that just creates more mudslinging...for example does it help by name calling the franchisees “outlaws” or “criminal enterprises”. It’s ugly behavior for a franchisor to give tips to the federal government about its franchisees illegally hiring undocumented workers...but that’s what happens when you litigate with unclean hands, the otherside will expose you. The Franchisor would be ju…

> What is the government supposed to do with tips like these?

The answer's right there in the story. Investigate normally, issue subpoenas with a reasonable time to respond, etc. instead of rushing in with large teams of uniformed personnel to disrupt business and discourage customers. It's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt in one of these, but maybe that's the point. Kristallnacht, anyone?

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#78

Post by camgunz » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 6:50 PM UTC

lostmsu wrote: post #35

jnbiche wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not primarily what the article is investigating. The article is pointing out 7-Eleven's alleged use of ICE and Homeland Security to target those franchisees who criticized or filed lawsuits against the corporation.

Yet, there're no proofs in the article, that raids and criticism are related in any way.

> One goal was to build cases to terminate franchise agreements, according to former employees interviewed by Bloomberg and lawsuits filed across the U.S. The tactics could be aggressive. In a 2014 lawsuit, Adnan Khan, a leader of 7-Eleven franchisees in California, alleged that a company investigator followed him for months in an unmarked car and at one point hit and injured him with the vehicle. 7-Eleven settled the suit.

I mean, articles don't have burdens of proof so to speak, but it's not like they did _no_ research.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#79

Post by tomschlick » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 6:50 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #72

tomschlick wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but this kind of display is emblematic of a fascist government Enforcing immigration law passed by a democratically elected congress is fascist? Really?

Yes, selectively enforcing laws to benefit one side in a business relationship is fascist.

Pretty sure ICE will enforce the law against anyone reported to them.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#80

Post by camgunz » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 6:54 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #12

esotericn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US was founded on immigration. > Can't let everyone in. Why not?

Because it breaks your economy and social fabric (super simplified for the sake of fitting a decent reply into one short HN comment). We're at the lowest level of unemployment in decades, and wages are barely moving up. Bringing in large amounts of unskilled workers (remember, skilled workers get in on merit) would only delay wages rising (or those unskilled workers are going to be working under the table in jobs lik…

> We're at the lowest level of unemployment in decades, and wages are barely moving up.

This has everything to do with corrupt politicians gaming the US economy and tax code for their patrons, and absolutely nothing to do with immigration. Study after study shows immigration has very little effect on wages.

> Some immigrants want to integrate with American society, but not all

What does this even mean? There is no single American society. If you don't believe me, compare Savannah to Oakland, or St. Paul to New Orleans.

Your comment repeats a lot of incorrect and dangerous information about immigrants. I encourage you to do some research.