The War Inside 7-Eleven • Hacker News Board

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#21

Post by mabbo » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #3

While there seems like a desire to blame 7-Eleven here, they are completely right to not want to have their franchisees violating federal immigration laws. While they are insulated by the contractor-contractee relationship, the government is humourless about these sorts of things. The violations are easy to prove (either you have proper employment documentation or you don’t) and enforcement is politically popular. Th…

While I agree with you, I also feel that 7-Eleven Corporate has taken the wrong approach to this. They've made it "me vs you" rather than "us vs the problem". They're pushing the franchisees in aggressive ways to extract more money out of them to start and then hiring a police force to spy on them. Now it sounds like they're sending out ICE against anyone who criticizes them, even those not breaking the law.

That's not a healthy relationship.

When corporate pushes margins thinner and thinner, only those willing to break laws will be able to survive.

Take the money being spent on surveillance vans and ex-cops and instead spend it on incentive systems, on committees of franchisees, of groups designed around "how can we solve this problem?". Stop using a heavy hand and start working with the other side. They're not the enemy here, they're the lifeblood of the company.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#22

Post by tomschlick » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

jnbiche wrote: post #6

I know there are folks on here who will roll their eyes, but this kind of display is emblematic of a fascist government. Fascism is the bonding of state and corporate power, driven by nationalism, authoritarianism, and a (usually) charismatic leader. For the record, I'm not a radical. I'm not even particularly partisan. I'm an average, middle-class American. But I've read enough history to know which way the wind is…

> but this kind of display is emblematic of a fascist government

Enforcing immigration law passed by a democratically elected congress is fascist? Really?

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#23

Post by sinnet11 » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 4:33 PM UTC

I think there is a deeper issue here with immigration labor. The only one's applying to work at 7-11 or a lot of these minimum wage jobs are people who are not dependable or are immigrants without the proper paper work. So if you hire the non dependable worker you are going to be going through the hiring process every 3 months.

Most people you'd like to hire often say "Why would I come work for you when Uber pays me X?" Uber has made it a lot harder to find dependable workers for convenience stores because most stores aren't willing to raise the wage so high that would eat away into their profit of owning a store in the process. I'm all for fair wage practices but at a certain point you'll be seeing a lot more 7-11's for sale than people willing to buy them. The economics will stop making sense to purchase convenience stores or rather start many small businesses because the wage to pay out will be too high.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#24

Post by msla » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 4:33 PM UTC

jnbiche wrote: post #6

I know there are folks on here who will roll their eyes, but this kind of display is emblematic of a fascist government. Fascism is the bonding of state and corporate power, driven by nationalism, authoritarianism, and a (usually) charismatic leader. For the record, I'm not a radical. I'm not even particularly partisan. I'm an average, middle-class American. But I've read enough history to know which way the wind is…

> Fascism is the bonding of state and corporate power

... only if you define "corporation" the way Fascists did:

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/corporatism.htm

> In the last half of the 19th century people of the working class in Europe were beginning to show interest in the ideas of socialism and syndicalism. Some members of the intelligentsia, particularly the Catholic intelligentsia, decided to formulate an alternative to socialism which would emphasize social justice without the radical solution of the abolition of private property. The result was called Corporatism. The name had nothing to do with the notion of a business corporation except that both words are derived from the Latin word for body, corpus.

> The basic idea of corporatism is that the society and economy of a country should be organized into major interest groups (sometimes called corporations) and representatives of those interest groups settle any problems through negotiation and joint agreement. In contrast to a market economy which operates through competition a corporate economic works through collective bargaining.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#25

Post by davidkuhta » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

For a second I thought frozen water was causing a massive management disturbance at 7-Eleven... #prettyurlproblems "eleven-is-at-war-with-its-own-franchisees-over-ice-raids"

I wish that had been the story :/

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#26

Post by moorhosj » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #12

esotericn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US was founded on immigration. > Can't let everyone in. Why not?

Because it breaks your economy and social fabric (super simplified for the sake of fitting a decent reply into one short HN comment). We're at the lowest level of unemployment in decades, and wages are barely moving up. Bringing in large amounts of unskilled workers (remember, skilled workers get in on merit) would only delay wages rising (or those unskilled workers are going to be working under the table in jobs lik…

Immigration is at generationally low levels, I don’t see how you could blame it for lack of wage increases. What about the stagnant minimum wage, record corporate profits or union busting; might they play a role? “American society” and “our values” are by-products of immigration, how would more immigrants ruin that?

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#27

Post by lotsofpulp » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 4:35 PM UTC

tomschlick wrote: post #13

lotsofpulp wrote: post #4

Are these claims below true? I was under the impression that a in a franchisor - franchisee relationship, the franchisee owns the business, and they are paying the franchisor to use the brand according to whatever standards are agreed upon. But I've never heard of a franchisor being able to "take over" a business, or do payroll for a franchisee. I've only ever heard of a a franchisee having to stop using the franchis…

Yes this is very common. I know McDonalds and Chick-fil-a both have clauses that if their operators refuse to comply they can shut down and replace them. Usually the building/land the stores are located on are owned by HQ as well so they have options on that end to revoke leases if need be. I wouldn't be surprised if 7-11 has the same setup.

I always assumed franchised businesses weren't owned by the brand that was franchising. Sounds like a terrible deal for the franchisee if all they're doing is renting a license to operate a business and not gaining any equity. I thought the whole point was so that the could work and gain a bit of equity in their business while using the marketing and quality assurance of the brand they franchise.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#28

Post by jhbadger » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 4:35 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #12

esotericn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US was founded on immigration. > Can't let everyone in. Why not?

Because it breaks your economy and social fabric (super simplified for the sake of fitting a decent reply into one short HN comment). We're at the lowest level of unemployment in decades, and wages are barely moving up. Bringing in large amounts of unskilled workers (remember, skilled workers get in on merit) would only delay wages rising (or those unskilled workers are going to be working under the table in jobs lik…

But this isn't the first time that anti-immigration hysteria happened. In the 19th century the fear was that massive Irish immigration to America in the wake of the potato famine would destroy the culture and economy of the mostly Protestant, English-descended America. While it certainly changed America, in retrospect it is hard to say it was really for the worse.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#29

Post by jnbiche » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 4:35 PM UTC

ericfrenkiel wrote: post #17

The title is crafted so salaciously as to make victims of the real criminals: SMB owners deliberately hiring illegal immigrants because they are easily exploitable. Some of the franchisees were literally stealing money from their hires. I don’t see why we should be lamenting people who abuse and prey on others because of their immigration status.

That's not primarily what the article is investigating. The article is pointing out 7-Eleven's alleged use of ICE and Homeland Security to target those franchisees who criticized or filed lawsuits against the corporation.

Re: The War Inside 7-Eleven

#30

Post by toomuchtodo » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 4:36 PM UTC

moorhosj wrote: post #26

toomuchtodo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it breaks your economy and social fabric (super simplified for the sake of fitting a decent reply into one short HN comment). We're at the lowest level of unemployment in decades, and wages are barely moving up. Bringing in large amounts of unskilled workers (remember, skilled workers get in on merit) would only delay wages rising (or those unskilled workers are going to be working under the table in jobs lik…

Immigration is at generationally low levels, I don’t see how you could blame it for lack of wage increases. What about the stagnant minimum wage, record corporate profits or union busting; might they play a role? “American society” and “our values” are by-products of immigration, how would more immigrants ruin that?

> What about the stagnant minimum wage, record corporate profits or union busting might they play a role?

I don't discount that these are major contributors to the problem. Adding additional labor supply, supply willing to work for almost nothing, does not help the problem.