Long-Awaited Study Results on Vitamin D and Fish Oil Supplements • Hacker News Board

Re: Long-Awaited Study Results on Vitamin D and Fish Oil Supplements

#221

Post by raspasov » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 12:16 AM UTC

devonEnlis wrote: post #148

raspasov wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the fraud product from a one-product-wonder public company Amarin (NASDAQ: AMRN). (see my comment below).

"fraud product" - Do you mean the product that has been FDA approved for 6 years? Is the FDA "in" on the fraud? Is the New England Journal of Medicine in too? Does having one product (that sold $xxx mil last year) make a bad company? Or one that put all of it's chips into this long term outcomes study? (which has now paid off) Why do you care so strongly about this?

No better than regular fish oil but costs hundreds of dollars a month.

A way to scam money out of Medicare.

Using mineral oil in the study to make their product look superior.

I'm not the only one to share those concerns: https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2018/11/10/fish-o...

The biomarkers of patients in the PLACEBO group decreased significantly (up to 30%). Why?

"But what seriously bothered five of the six cardiologists I spoke to was that the mineral oil had not behaved as a placebo at all. In other studies of cardiovascular drugs, blood test results on placebo do not budge. That’s not what happened here. Patients who received mineral oil saw their levels of low-density lipoprotein, the bad cholesterol, increase 10% to 84 milligrams per deciliter, 6% more than in the Vascepa group, according to the New England Journal of Medicine paper. What’s more, other blood test results used by cardiologists also went in the wrong direction. These changes were included in a supplement to the scientific paper, but not in the study itself. Levels of c-reactive protein, a measure of inflammation that is used to help calculate heart risk by some doctors, increased from 2.1 milligrams per liter to 2.8 milligrams per liter, a 30% increase. Could the placebo be causing some heart problems or strokes, making Vascepa look better than it really is?"

Shame on NPR for the sloppy reporting.

Re: Long-Awaited Study Results on Vitamin D and Fish Oil Supplements

#222

Post by kbutler » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 2:48 AM UTC

lhl wrote: post #92

kbutler wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, a decade ago, the lunacy was expecting something to counteract a diet high in fat.

There's a lot of back on forth on this, and I think that while Ancel Keys was wrong, he now gets unfairly maligned a lot. Nutritional science is just hard. Here's an interesting writeup on how dietary fat became the bogeyman: https://deniseminger.com/2011/12/22/the-truth-about-ancel-ke... (One interesting thing about the past associational studies is that many did not control for transfats, or even smoking). I also l…

It's absolutely hard. I just expect that a blanket "carbs are evil" is likely to be as incorrect as the blanket "fats are evil" advice. (e.g., the Twinkie diet http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/... )

Amount of food we eat, roughly eetimatable as calories, is important. I think gut biota is also an interesting field we are just learning about.

But yes, eat in moderation and exercise.

Re: Long-Awaited Study Results on Vitamin D and Fish Oil Supplements

#223

Post by raspasov » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 3:08 AM UTC

albedoa wrote: post #183

raspasov wrote: post #111

Sooooooo... I did a little bit of digging here. 3 studies: ------------------- 1st study about Vitamin D https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01169259 2nd study about fish oil with a low dose, 1 gram https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01169259 3rd study about a PROPRIETARY PRESCRIPTION variation of fish oil with a HIGH DOSE https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/record/NCT01492361 Results: --------------------- 1s…

It is unclear what your suspicions are. You capitalized a bunch of words and concluded with "Total fraudsters". Can you tell us your specific issues with the studies?

See my other comments in the thread, the Forbes article quoting a few other cardiologists from other major universities.

Google around about the company and their drug Vascepa. Many people are skeptical about it and IMHO they have a point. Vascepa an extract from fish oil but is... prescription? Why? So they can extract hundreds of dollars from programs like Medicare when your doctor writes you a prescription about it. Vascepa does not seem to be any better than regular over-the-counter fish oil.

Re: Long-Awaited Study Results on Vitamin D and Fish Oil Supplements

#224

Post by meowface » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 4:54 AM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #8

In my opinion, the best benefit of fish oil and Omega threes and vitamin D are in combating depression. This article did not touch on that. There is pretty good evidence that fish oil is one of the best supplements for combating depression because it is used directly in construction of neurotransmitter pathways. I highly recommend reading Dr Mark Hyman's book the Ultramind Solution. It's loaded with great info regard…

I'm a vegetarian since birth who rarely ever gets sunlight exposure, and omega 3 (from algae pills) and vitamin D3 + K2 seem to have improved my mood within a few weeks of taking them daily. I still take them every day, and the mood improvement seems to have stuck around.

Re: Long-Awaited Study Results on Vitamin D and Fish Oil Supplements

#225

Post by majkinetor » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 7:38 AM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #152

koboll wrote: post #108

"Fine and Manson stressed that vitamin D and the omega-3 fatty acids found in fish oil are important nutrients, but the best way to get them is as part of a well-balanced diet. That includes eating fatty fish like sardines, tuna and salmon, and vitamin-D fortified cereals, milk, and orange juice." Ah, okay. So instead of taking supplemental Vitamin D, you should get it from natural sources, such as..... foods that ha…

It's espacially weird given that D vitamins can be produced easily in the human body as long as you expose the skin to the sun. It's in no way required to be provided from external sources. A daily 15 minutes of exposure for the face and forarms is enough, and it contributes to recalibrate the mood and circadian rythm as well. It's free, healthy, and simple. Why would anyone recommand a supplement to people that have…

Darker skin types do not produce adequate vitamin D.

Re: Long-Awaited Study Results on Vitamin D and Fish Oil Supplements

#226

Post by majkinetor » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 7:41 AM UTC

agsdfgsd wrote: post #195

dmix wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Importantly the results were only positive for those: > Among patients with elevated triglyceride levels Much like low dose aspirin its possible this is a bad idea for the average person unless you are already showing signs of heart disease.

How is low dose aspirin bad for the average person? It is an anti-inflammatory, and inflammation is a leading theory of potential disease causation for a number of diseases. Daily low dose aspirin is associated with a significantly lower all-cause mortality in average people.

Aspirin has detrimental effects on stomach, thats how. Ibuprofen was created because of that.

Think 1 teaspoon of blood per day that you bleed from stomach.

Vitamin C can prevent some of that but it still exists.

Re: Long-Awaited Study Results on Vitamin D and Fish Oil Supplements

#227

Post by arcturus17 » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 7:47 AM UTC

cies wrote: post #220

loeg wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'cies is repeatedly linking a vegan advocacy website. Infer from that what you will.

Those doctors recommend a WFPB diet. Veganism is an ethical stance, not promoted professionally that I know by any of them (Greger, Campbell, Furman, Eisselstyn, McDoughal, Klaper, etc.). Is there a chance that a diet that is similar to chimps, bonobos and utangs is most healthy for us as well? No refined food, mostly fruits+leaves and some seeds and bugs. It "maybe" that simple. These doctors are aware of this, and…

> High meat cultures never produced the longest living people.

This is a lie.

Spain has the fourth longest living country in the world according to the WHO, and ranks 11th in the world in meat consumption at 97 kg per person according to the FAO.

Australia, tied at 4th with Spain in life expectancy, consumes a whooping 111 kg per person, 3rd in the world.

Japan and Iceland, first and fifth in life expectancy, consume metric shittons of fish.

How would you bend this crushing evidence to support the argument that "high meat cultures don't produce the longest living people"?

Re: Long-Awaited Study Results on Vitamin D and Fish Oil Supplements

#228

Post by lustysocietyorg » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 8:15 AM UTC

agsdfgsd wrote: post #200

lustysocietyorg wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, absolutely. Fish oil is not needed at all. The EPA and DHA in fish was initially produced by algae anyway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_fatty_acid The 2 essential fatty acids are: - alpha-linolenic acid (ALA, an omega-3 fatty acid). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha-Linolenic_acid - linoleic acid (LA, an omega-6 fatty acid). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linoleic_acid Linseed oil (flaxseed oil) is a…

>Fish oil is not needed at all. The EPA and DHA in fish was initially produced by algae anyway People who lived in areas without fish also lived in areas without algae. >The 2 essential fatty acids are It is worth noting that there is basically no evidence that those 2 fatty acids are actually essential. A single study done in the 1930s is the basis for that belief. A study in which rats fed no fat got symptoms we no…

> People who lived in areas without fish also lived in areas without algae.

The point is that EPA and DHA is not made by fish. EPA and DHA can be bought in vegan form. EPA and DHA are not even considered as essential fatty acids. Unlike ALA and LA.

I have not seen any study what shows that ALA and LA are not essential. If you have one, please link it. I would like to know.

> And linseed oil consumption is correlated with an increase in all cause mortality.

Link please.

> Or switching from perfectly safe saturated fats to "heart healthy" trans fats even though it increases mortality.

What are you talking about ? Are yout talking about margerine and butter ?

But I agree that many so called experts are not experts.

Many organizations and in particular government organizations (e.g. EPA and FDA in the USA) affected by politicians are very prone to corruption and pleasing corrupting lobby groups like the food industry and the military industry and the fossil fuel industry.

But some truth is known in 2018.

https://livinontheveg.com/omnivore-or-herbivore/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl8zNztsoGg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCMWctmCCqU&t=432

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLLrSGiXTX6Im72KTZRDln...

Re: Long-Awaited Study Results on Vitamin D and Fish Oil Supplements

#229

Post by cies » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 8:19 AM UTC

arcturus17 wrote: post #227

cies wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those doctors recommend a WFPB diet. Veganism is an ethical stance, not promoted professionally that I know by any of them (Greger, Campbell, Furman, Eisselstyn, McDoughal, Klaper, etc.). Is there a chance that a diet that is similar to chimps, bonobos and utangs is most healthy for us as well? No refined food, mostly fruits+leaves and some seeds and bugs. It "maybe" that simple. These doctors are aware of this, and…

> High meat cultures never produced the longest living people. This is a lie. Spain has the fourth longest living country in the world according to the WHO, and ranks 11th in the world in meat consumption at 97 kg per person according to the FAO. Australia, tied at 4th with Spain in life expectancy, consumes a whooping 111 kg per person, 3rd in the world. Japan and Iceland, first and fifth in life expectancy, consume…

That, as you said, of the developed nations Japan is the first (they eat fish rather than meat).

Also in Japan you can find the longest living people, Okinawa, and they barely eat meat (traditionally). A food culture is not defined by national borders: we have to look inside the countries to see what culture work for longevity. See the bluezones book.

Then I must say that I said something wrong: "longest living" alone is not enough, we want to be healthy too. Being sick for the last 30 years of my life, kept on my feet by a medical system (as what happens a lot in developed nations), it not a good prospect for me.

Re: Long-Awaited Study Results on Vitamin D and Fish Oil Supplements

#230

Post by coldtea » Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 8:25 AM UTC

devonEnlis wrote: post #211

coldtea wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "fraud product" - Do you mean the product that has been FDA approved for 6 years? Is the FDA "in" on the fraud? No, but something can be both FDA approved and fraud, e.g. snake oil. It just can't be particularly dangerous. > Why do you care so strongly about this? Wasn't you who devoted 4-5 arguments to a single comment the parent made? Why add this pop-psychology facile dismissal? What does "care so strongly" even…

Trying to understand the commenter's motivations. This product has reduced cardiovascular death - if his fraud conspiracy theory convinces appropriate patients not to take it, it could literally kill people.

First time hearing about the product, but looking at the facts, the parent seems to be right. It's more snakeoil than product. Your argument was that FDA approved it, but here's the actual story:

"On 10/16/2013 after FDA's ADCOM panel had voted 9-2 against recommending to expand Vascepa's label for treatment of cardiovascular disease, shares dropped over 60%"

"In March 2016, after losing a court case, the FDA agreed to allow some off-label marketing"

So, it's not like FDA approved it as a drug for cardiovascular disease. They overwhelmingly rejected it as so, and then were forced to allow it to market it self off-label as such (for "free speech" purposes, as opposed for medical reality).