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Rocket Launch in New Zealand Brings Quick, Cheap Space Access

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Re: Rocket Launch in New Zealand Brings Quick, Cheap Space Access

#151

Post by Gibbon1 »

syntaxing wrote: post #126
Gibbon1 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw a paper that examined pressure fed, turbo pumps, and electric. Electric beats both pressure fed and turbo pumps at the size Rocket Lab is targeting. At large sizes turbines beat electric but the plumbing is much more complex and technically challenging. I'm suspicious that electrics are viable for first stages where performance advantage is less important. For first stages the cost is linear with ISP. Where it'…

I would love to read that paper if you can find it! Does metal 3D printing mitigate any of these challenges? Or is the problem a packaging problem where there is a minimum size required for the mechanical parts?

This is the paper I'm drawing most of my blather from. Apparently helpfully linked from the great wiki.

https://www.aacademica.org/hernan.emilio.tacca/9.pdf

I did some more looking, the linked study says that turbopumps scale better then electric as the burn time increases. Because burning fuel and oxidizer is more weight efficient than batteries. At short burn times that's offset by the increased weight of the turbopump.

Along with my earlier comment, the Proton first stage only burns for 130 seconds. Which puts first stages in the short burn category where eletrics do well. *but never as good as turbo pumps. Which supports the idea that electric systems can compete for large first stages by being simple, cheap, and reliable.

More whack is relanding first stage electric fed rockets. Ala SpaceX.

Re: Rocket Launch in New Zealand Brings Quick, Cheap Space Access

#152

Post by shirro »

flyingkiwi44 wrote: post #113

For those asking if there is demand for small rockets that can be sent up often. "Australian start-up Fleet Space Technologies sent up two satellites ... Fleet has spent all year waiting to hitch rides on rockets from SpaceX and the Indian government ... About six weeks ago, it found out there was room on the Rocket Lab rocket. Typically, it takes months or years to get satellites ready, installed and certified for l…

Good to see Fleet Space launching. They are Adelaide based.

We used to have one of the biggest missile/rocket ranges in the world once. Kistler were thinking of bringing the range back in the 00s but didn't survive. As NZ picks up the baton and charges forward it is good to see we still have a role to play with payloads.

Re: Rocket Launch in New Zealand Brings Quick, Cheap Space Access

#153

Post by stcredzero »

neaanopri wrote: post #90
2trill2spill wrote: post #52

My favorite thing about Rocket Lab is the rocket engine they use[1]. By replacing the turbopump with a electric motor they were able to remove one of the single most complicated and expensive parts of a rocket engine. As battery densities keep increasing we should see electrically fed engines being used on bigger and bigger rockets. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutherford_(rocket_engine)

Electric turbopumps are an answer to the question: "how small can you make a commercially viable orbital rocket?" Atmospheric drag effects rocket performance less and less the larger a rocket gets (square-cube law), so that a rocket like the Space Shuttle can effectively ignore the atmosphere. Conversely, the smaller a rocket gets, the harder and harder launch gets. This is the problem Rocket Lab has decided to attac…

Without any one of these advances, Rocket Lab would not be viable. It still may end up not being viable. Rocket Lab can never compete on bulk orbital cargo pricing. However, Rocket Lab's vision of applying recent tech advancements to bring down the smallest possible launcher size is extremely commendable.

Without a number of advances, the iPad and iPhone wouldn't have been viable. (As evidenced by the appearance of tablets and smartphones many years before.) Tablets can't compete with larger form factors on bulk pricing of computation. However, there is a technology inflection point where smaller and more flexible becomes usable enough. I guess that's what RocketLab is aiming for.

Re: Rocket Launch in New Zealand Brings Quick, Cheap Space Access

#154

Post by stcredzero »

Qworg wrote: post #70
schoen wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare the SpaceX barge names, which are taken from Iain M. Banks books: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_spaceport_drone_shi...

The culture we have versus the Culture we want?

Those are among my favorite Sci-fi novels. However, I think being the pet of higher powers only works out in fiction.

Re: Rocket Launch in New Zealand Brings Quick, Cheap Space Access

#155

Post by dexterdog »

tychomaz wrote: post #118

I’m pretty sure “It’s Business Time” refers to a Flight of the Conchords song: https://youtu.be/WGOohBytKTU

Yup - that's what I assumed when I saw the name and that it's in NZ. It got a pretty good chuckle out of me.

Re: Rocket Launch in New Zealand Brings Quick, Cheap Space Access

#156

Post by EdwardDiego »

apendleton wrote: post #120
starik36 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As mentioned yesterday in the live cast, design and manufacturing is happening in Huntington Beach, California, then it is shipped to New Zealand.

Engines and avionics, but the rocket bodies, fairings, etc., are made in NZ and final assembly is there. In this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj9BncsgvuQ the CEO talks about how that has been advantageous because apparently there's a large talent pool in carbon composite fabrication in NZ, and that while there are eventually plans to also launch from the US, when they do they'll still be making bodies i…

> apparently there's a large talent pool in carbon composite fabrication in NZ

Wonder how much of that was from building faster yachts for Team New Zealand?

Re: Rocket Launch in New Zealand Brings Quick, Cheap Space Access

#157

Post by nathan_f77 »

unknown_apostle wrote: post #147
djrobstep wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't do it. I grew up there. Parochial, small-minded, cliquey people, all the money is in construction and farming rather than tech, poor range of jobs, low wages, and relatively expensive real estate. I moved to Australia, found more interesting work at more than double the salary. Nicer weather and more genuine people, and real multicultural culture due to truly international big cities.

But also 30% tax rate, totally open for business, common law, beautiful nature, forced by their difficult geographic location "to try harder" and be more open. I would also say that being a small country puts a limit to having big political ambitions. Many safe, wealthy, stable countries are small and sovereign (or were at least originally based on "small-minded" localist politics). I can see NZ become some kind of P…

I also grew up in New Zealand, and it's not for me. It's great if you want to start a family and have a very quiet life. I think I might retire there if I can somehow afford a house.

One of the main reasons I left is that I could never afford a house, or even the down-payment on a mortgage. If I had lots of money then New Zealand would probably be more appealing to me, but it's not a good place to earn it. I don't know if you'll be able to get a very competitive salary, but it might be worth it if you're really excited about the company, and you'll be working on some really interesting things.

One thing to mention is that most shops will close at 5pm, and many cafes even close at 3pm. I think once a week, the shopping malls will stay open until 10pm. The streets are completely quiet at night, and you won't see anyone walking around. After living in bigger cities for a while, I'm always really shocked when I go back for a visit. It's like a ghost town. It's an important factor for me because I work remotely, so I hated being stuck at home and having nowhere to go at 8pm.

Another very important point: You will probably have to cook almost all of your own food at home. Going out to eat at cafes and restaurant is extremely expensive, and it's probably not something that you can afford to do every day (especially not on a NZ salary.) I'm used to living in cities where it's normal to eat out at restaurants most of the time. But you can't do that in New Zealand unless you're very wealthy.

Anyway, it's great if you want to live somewhere quiet and raise a family. You can also spend lots of time at the beach, and go for walks in nature. But you can do that in lots of other countries, too. Personally, I prefer to live somewhere a bit more vibrant, where there's a lot of opportunities and things to do.

Re: Rocket Launch in New Zealand Brings Quick, Cheap Space Access

#158

Post by sandworm101 »

wbl wrote: post #102
greglindahl wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rocket uses a fair amount of ITAR-restricted technology, which means that they needed a pretty robust US-based organization and engine manufacturing. The company also sold a bunch of suborbital rocket launches to the US government before they raised money to build an orbital rocket. And the money mostly came from US-based VCs. All of these details feed into the company HQ being in the US, but a majority of their…

ITAR restricts US parts. It does not apply to non US technology sources although Wassenar and MTCR are multilateral. It would be possible to make rockets with no ITAR covered parts. After all that's what Russia France and China have.

Russian and Chinese rockets are definitely covered by ITAR. ITAR isn't a trade barrier or patent protection. It doesn't care about national origin. It applies to all export of relevant technologies from the US. So if you imported a Russian rocket into the US, its further export would be a violation of ITAR rules regardless of where that rocket first came from.

Re: Rocket Launch in New Zealand Brings Quick, Cheap Space Access

#159

Post by taneq »

masklinn wrote: post #20
taneq wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think about it, the added starting velocity from launching on the equator is nice but is still only ~6% of the total velocity required to get into low Earth orbit. (0.0625 = 1.5 / 24 given orbital period in LEO is ~90 minutes and rotation period is 24 hours). Even at 45 degrees latitude you're only losing 0.707*6=4.4% of your target velocity.

The problem is not the starting velocity (which is indeed minor, and not an issue for LEO launches) it's the inclination burns you need to reach GTO/GEO. With roughly equivalent rockets, there's a 30~40% difference in payload mass between Kourou (5°N) and Baikonur (45°N): Proton can launch 23t to LEO and 7t to GTO while Ariane 5 can send 21t to LEO and 10t to GTO.

That makes sense, I hadn't really thought about it in this context but I guess geostationary orbits kind of have to be equatorial.

Re: Rocket Launch in New Zealand Brings Quick, Cheap Space Access

#160

Post by toomanybeersies »

apendleton wrote: post #120
starik36 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As mentioned yesterday in the live cast, design and manufacturing is happening in Huntington Beach, California, then it is shipped to New Zealand.

Engines and avionics, but the rocket bodies, fairings, etc., are made in NZ and final assembly is there. In this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj9BncsgvuQ the CEO talks about how that has been advantageous because apparently there's a large talent pool in carbon composite fabrication in NZ, and that while there are eventually plans to also launch from the US, when they do they'll still be making bodies i…

Speaking of carbon composite fabrication talent in NZ, I remember at an airshow in NZ a few years ago there was a company making a helicopter with an entirely composite airframe. Not sure what ended up happening to it, but it was interesting to see such cutting edge technology coming coming out of such a small company with minimal funding.

John Britten's superbike in the 1990s was also a pioneer for all sorts of composite manufacturing

Us Kiwis have always been good at that kind of thing though. There's actually a very healthy aviation technology and manufacturing industry here, especially for such a small country.

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