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Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

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Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#581

Post by jnurmine »

kartan wrote: post #43

> Swedish legislation makes it possible for retailers, restaurants and other companies to refuse to accept cash, for instance by putting up a sign at the entrance or by the till. Yes. It started as a curiosity and now this signs are everywhere. > By connecting a bank account in any bank with a mobile phone number, Swish has become a popular way to share a restaurant bill Yes. And to gather money for a friend's birthd…

I suppose the oldest part can get a card like SL has and occasionally load it with cash and then just beep it when entering the bus/train? It is no more difficult a concept than having a library card. They'll certainly get help with the process at the ticket counter.

Is it a real, factual problem that old people cannot somehow pay for their mass transit in the year 2018?

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#582

Post by gammateam »

stale2002 wrote: post #527
gammateam wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lightning is available now. The 18 months meme was regarding when it wasn't. If you want to perpetuate that criticism, you'll need up to date arguments: Lightning is cumbersome to use and impractical because of the requirement to run a personal full node to connect to AND your device running the payment channel needs to always ben online for the duration of the payment channel. "Watchtowers" solve both of these issue…

There is no updating of arguments necessary. The problem in Bitcoin today are the same problem that have existed for years. That problem being that there are too many people focused on esoteric solutions, like watchtowers, 2nd layers, and even 3rd layers, that only developers care about. And not enough people talking to customers or merchants, and building things that make Bitcoin work as an actual currency. Seeing a…

Bitpay's solution will always have poor UX for merchants while these protocol layer things are not available.

Bitpay's solution would have been okay while 0-conf transactions were not replaceable on BTC. But this had capacity limitations that lightning won't.

What you are saying would have merit, if thats what was happening on these particular topics. Wallets are totally not built for customers, but thats not one of the things you highlighted.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#583

Post by jnurmine »

solarwind wrote: post #39
mamon wrote: post #2

More appropriate name would be "dystopia" because banning cash will have mostly adverse effects, intruducing nearly-totalitarian control over the citizens being the most important one.

If you are a Canadian citizen who ever used a credit/debit card at a cannabis dispensary (or if you even just invested or worked for a Canadian dispensary), you are now permanently barred from entering the United States. A cashless society is a totalitarian society.

Sounds more like Canada needs something like Swish which does not share any payment/merchant data with the US.

But isn't there something like that already for Canadians?

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#584

Post by aidenn0 »

pyre wrote: post #492
aidenn0 wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember that too; my grandfather used to go on business trips to NYC, and after adjusting for inflation the amount he carried was almost 5000 USD. Very few people walk around with that amount of cash today.

> Very few people walk around with that amount of cash today. ... because the cops would stop him, insinuate that the money probably had something to do with crime, and then seize it to line their own pockets cough cough I mean "bolster their budgets."

My grandfather was a WASP in a business suit. He's not going to get stop and frisked in NYC.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#585

Post by illumin8 »

sebiol wrote: post #554
illumin8 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main difference being that Disney has multiple backup systems, including switching to a completely manual process in case their network or servers are offline. I watched a presentation on this, and it's actually very interesting how they manage the ride experience so that even during a system outage they can still let people get on the rides.

Is this presentation available online? I'd be very interested in watching it too.

Sorry, I saw Disney's CIO speak at a tech conference, but I don't believe it was recorded.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#586

Post by wink »

eksemplar wrote: post #123
kristofferR wrote: post #97

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

That’s festival payment done wrong, but cashless can be really great at festivals. In Denmark we have a festival called Skanderborg festival, and they build both your ticket and your cashless payment into the festival bracelet. You use the bracelet to pay everywhere, and you can add money to it a range of payment methods, from using a visa or similar in their app, to visiting one of the cash places where you can use…

They wanted to also do that for M'era Luna in 2016 and I wasn't very much looking forward to that, hearing it in 2015 - might be because I read about them tracking your movement and having your payment history at the festival. Suddenly cash was really convenient again to me.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#587

Post by MereInterest »

thomasz wrote: post #523
beefield wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why the fuck are you bothering me with this? Handling cash is a hassle in many ways: 1. It's slow. Obviously it is not slow in the best case when the customer throws in the exact change, but it is _really_ slow in the probably more typical case when the drunkard is at the counter and starts to dig into the pockets and find out if he has enough coins or when the seventh customer in the row wants to pay his ten cent…

It's only slow because you are not used to paying with cash. Most payments are done with cash here, and the few people paying with cards cause small but noticeable delays. Counting cash is usually faster than handling a card reader, entering the PIN and whatnot. The odd drunkard or elderly customer is comparable to the odd technical problem, which usually takes longer to resolve.

I think it is also slow because the US does not require prices to be displayed including sales tax. If you pick something that has a marked price of $1, the total price will be somewhere between $1 and $1.10, depending on which state/city you are in, and what category of goods you are buying. Unless you are familiar with the exact tax code of your area, you won't be ready with exact change when paying. Even if you are, it means that you need to manage all the worthless pennies and nickels that result from paying with cash.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#588

Post by protomyth »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #490
protomyth wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a fear that shows up in a common interpretation of Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. This is one of the verses in the Bible that tends to drive a lot of the hatred for national ids and removal of cash in the US.

A local, sandwich shop charges $6.66 for a specific sub after tax if you don't get the full meal. Owner or corporate office probably never thought about it. The locals regularly change the amount, often subtracting, because so many people don't want to pay that specific number. I always try to do some dark, comedy routine the second I see it if it's a new employee in case they're superstitious. At least one looked li…

You can look at how people treat numbers in general. The story of 13 (Triskaidekaphobia) and 4 (Tetraphobia) are pretty interesting. We like to watch the odometer roll over and make words on calculators.

I still wish we had all followed the Yuki (base 8), it would have made computing so much easier.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#589

Post by AnssiH »

jnurmine wrote: post #571
AnssiH wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Finnish bank has always (10+ years) asked for the full recipient address when I've entered a foreign IBAN (even within EU). Just tested that it still does. I don't think they validate it, though, IIRC I've gotten away with simply putting in "Germany".

Did you use "foreign payment" or just pay as if it were a domestic payment? I don't remember seeing issues in SEPA area, if I just use the IBAN and pay like any normal payment. If I am specifically doing a "foreign payment" some extra fields need to be filled in. That is how I recall the process, last time was 1 year ago though.

No, I used the normal "domestic" payment form. It detects a foreign IBAN and then dynamically adds the extra mandatory address fields on the page.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#590

Post by majewsky »

kadendogthing wrote: post #473
gsich wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can already see that manufacturers have a hard time to come up with new features. Stuff like thinner devices (nobody cares or wants this to a certain degree, compared to a better battery life), 3+ cameras, notches because for some reason you can't integrate speakers behind the display. "AI" stuff that doesn't work when you're offline. I would trade all this shit for a week battery time. So yes, while smartphones…

>nobody cares or wants this to a certain degree, compared to a better battery life Then why do consumers constantly praise thinner phones, and continue to purchase them? I think you're mistaking what you want and consider a good choice compared to what everyone else actually wants and is willing to support.

I think what we're seeing here is that companies optimise for the store shelf rather than for actual use. A thinner, bigger phone looks much more appealing in the store, which is where customers make the purchase decision. The disadvantages of that design (comparatively short battery life, does not fit into the pockets of my favorite pants) are only noticed later when the purchase has already been made.
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