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Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

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Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#571

Post by jnurmine »

AnssiH wrote: post #254
dao- wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IBAN == bank account number with the bank info baked in, although I think for foreign transfers you might still have to provide the bank code separately. I've never been asked for an address when doing a wire transfer. From what I've heard banks stopped validating the name field a long time ago and you can enter whatever you want.

My Finnish bank has always (10+ years) asked for the full recipient address when I've entered a foreign IBAN (even within EU). Just tested that it still does. I don't think they validate it, though, IIRC I've gotten away with simply putting in "Germany".

Did you use "foreign payment" or just pay as if it were a domestic payment?

I don't remember seeing issues in SEPA area, if I just use the IBAN and pay like any normal payment. If I am specifically doing a "foreign payment" some extra fields need to be filled in. That is how I recall the process, last time was 1 year ago though.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#572

Post by jnurmine »

gigatexal wrote: post #529
kristofferR wrote: post #97

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

The locked down nature of Swish and it’s monopoly status is worrisome. I was thinking there was just a ton of NFC readable payment devices that could accept any form of contactless payment like Apple Pay or Alipay or Google Pay etc... this is definitely not a good sign. Regarding the article saying that if central banks become irrelevant due to cash going fully out of favor: that’s such BS. Deposits would just become…

Why is Swish worrying you?

It is basically a payment overlay on top of whatever technology runs in the mobile devices. If tomorrow the dominant mobile OS is Foobar, there will be Swish for it and things just keep on working. It is not tied to a US or Chinese megacorporation, so there is no risk of geopolitically-influenced political decisions ruining the show, like those threatening SWIFT, for example. Swish works just fine inside Sweden, for Swedes.

All countries should have the equivalent of Swish and then make them interoperate if sending money to another country.

I can think of one thing why Swish and "e-krona" is not a good idea: if the lights go out temporarily, it will be difficult to pay for something (although figuring this out is a technical problem -- the payments could be queued in the terminals or something).

If the lights go out forever and we enter the quiet apocalypse, then there is very little use for cash either, aside from use as tinder or drying shoes, and plastic notes will not work for those either.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#573

Post by EthanHeilman »

Aeolun wrote: post #460
EthanHeilman wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have known how to do untraceable* transactions [0] since 1982. There has now been thirty years of cryptographic research building on these results. The reason it hasn't happened is not because we can't do it but because governments resist the additional privacy protections. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecash * - For some values of untracable. The privacy provided by ecash is in theory less than cash provides…

Even if they store the serial numbers on cash, there is no name linked to those numbers without you also using something like a store/coupon card.

In theory what could be done is (not saying anyone does this):

1. When you get cash from an ATM or Bank they record the serial numbers of the cash they gave you and attach it to your identity.

2. When you spend those funds at a store they record what you bought and the serial numbers of the cash you paid with and the serial numbers of the bills you received as change.

The government could then build a graph of spends attached to your identity. With high probability they could trace how you spent that money. One problem they would run into is if you gave or received cash from a friend. However while this might cause the tracing procedure to make some errors, it would also allow it to, in some cases, infer which of your friends you exchange cash with.

In any realistic scenario the government would also be intersecting this graph of spends with additional information such as license plate readers, RFID data from public transit, facial recognition,cell tower geolocation, etc... Serial number tracing would be just one data source.

Probably your best bet for privacy here would be pay people begging for money to swap bills with you e.g. exchanging a twenty dollar bill for a ten dollar bill.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#574

Post by jnurmine »

sparkie wrote: post #58
yongjik wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You already live in a society where the food, water, and shelter you freely purchase has to be certified and authorized by faceless people you've never met and will never meet. Even your labor you are willing to give has to be certified at some level. That's why you don't have to worry about salmonella in your chicken sandwich or a steel beam falling onto your head at work. You're welcome.

Another false comparison. There's a big difference between implementing society-wide regulations and unpersoning individuals.

If the government wants to "unperson" someone, cash or no cash or electronic money, they will just come and collect you.

You having pieces of plastic/paper and/or metal trinkets in your pocket plays will not save you from this.

I understand the apparent privacy angle, but if you analyze it further, cash won't help in the presence of a malicious system. If the government cares enough about you to stop you from using e-cash/credit cards to buy or sell, they will also care enough to not let you roam free.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#575

Post by Markoff »

eigenvector wrote: post #155
kristofferR wrote: post #97

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

You can have a very similar experience in China. So many things are now paid for by mobile wallets such as WeChat Pay that do not support foreign accounts. It's great for locals and for the government that - in an authoritarian country - gets unfettered access to all that personalized spending data. For tourists, not so much.

anyone can send money to your account if you hand them cash without linking card, only thing you need to create account it's phone number

plus cash it's also accepted everywhere

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#576

Post by Markoff »

beefield wrote: post #471
Aeolun wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think my problem with this comes down to ‘why the fuck are you bothering me with this?!’. We have perfectly valid working payment systems (cash, debit/credit), and for some reason you’ve decided that your festivals proprietary payment system is better? Have to load money, have to retrieve money, and have zero insight into how much I’ve already spent without even more apps or interfaces.

> why the fuck are you bothering me with this? Handling cash is a hassle in many ways: 1. It's slow. Obviously it is not slow in the best case when the customer throws in the exact change, but it is _really_ slow in the probably more typical case when the drunkard is at the counter and starts to dig into the pockets and find out if he has enough coins or when the seventh customer in the row wants to pay his ten cent…

so use MasterCard/visa?

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#578

Post by corodra »

antt wrote: post #352
corodra wrote: post #100

I can’t find the article, but didn’t another Nordic country, where they’re going cashless already find a flaw? Their communication infrastructure had some sort of disruption, I don’t think it was an attack, but a failure of something for like half a day. Because of that, merchant services were screwed. Few people could buy anything since few carried cash. Don’t get me wrong, I barely carry cash on me. I just have a b…

Back in the old country we had a dozen currencies, gold and jewels hidden in a fake brick for that exact reason. When you need to buy a train ticket to get away from the Germans or Russians you don't want to be asking "Sorry do you accept AmEx?".

I grew up that if the Russians or Germans are coming, you’re going to use vodka as a currency.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#579

Post by zmk_ »

aembleton wrote: post #507
zmk_ wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would have to pay commission on every transaction to whoever owns the terminal and the network.

You have to pay someone to take away the cash and its often slower than tapping your card on a reader.

I have not said that it is not worth it. But it really depends on the business and the arrangement. Some banks charge you a fixed minimum rate making small purchases relatively more expensive for the seller.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#580

Post by zmk_ »

mav3rick wrote: post #564
zmk_ wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cash is not one of those things though. Nor is the system of buying metro tickets with cash only and without an option to change language.

There is a big "English" option. Plus other languages as well.

I might have been unlucky then, but the one machine I was in contact with before I ceded all responsibility on my host was Japanese only.
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