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Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

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Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#451

Post by zmk_ »

isodude wrote: post #249
kristofferR wrote: post #97

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

There will always be other solutions at hand, these guys are doing something about it: https://www.revolut.com Same as swish but no need for Swedish banks nor BankID. I use Swish extensively because it works for giving kids cash remote and at the same time buying a car. If I would stumple on someone who is unable to use it it would be troublesome, but I think most swedes would break their neck to solve it anyhow in t…

There are fintech companies that make transfers between countries painless and cheap.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#452

Post by rs23296008n1 »

sumedh wrote: post #422
Aeolun wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it does, you go to the bank and get more cash. If your card gets stolen however, you go to the bank, fill out a ton of forms, pay a fee for losing your card. Wait a few days for your new card to be delivered in the mail. And then, finally can you pay again. In the meanwhile, you are forced to pay with... cash! Which nobody accepts, because not having a debit card is socially unacceptable in our society.

> you go to the bank and get more cash. Not sure which country you are talking about but the vast majority of people go to an ATM not the bank to get cash. You still need a debit card to get cash from an ATM.

In my country I can withdraw cash from the machine as I pay for shopping at the supermarket. And I'm not saying I withdraw cash then pay. I pay with the card AND the cash I withdrew comes out after the transaction is complete.

I haven't been to a bank for getting cash in 10 years. And as you say, ATMs are where you get cash.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#453

Post by icebraining »

StavrosK wrote: post #157
masklinn wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It removes the entire second paragraph. It takes about 5mn to do a SEPA bank transfer: open banking client, open transfers, create new transfer, enter destination IBAN, enter amount, optionally set a data & some text, confirm.

Which is much longer than handing someone a 10 euro note.

That would be of limited value to someone in Sweden, which uses the krona. Automatic currency conversion is one of the advantages of electronic payments over cash.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#454

Post by [deleted] »

plufz wrote: post #292
kristofferR wrote: post #97

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

Atleast 99% of my payments in sweden are with a totally normal credit card, the rest with swish. I only use paper money to give to homeless people, can’t remember when I bought something with bills and coins. I think it’s great, I’m more worried about tax evasion than my government knowing what I buy. I’m more interested in my speech being free than my purchases, even though I can see the problem in non-functioning d…

[deleted]

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#455

Post by protomyth »

ars wrote: post #375
protomyth wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was at a gas station in Grand Forks, ND in the middle of winter at 2AM fueling up. I had traveled this route and stopped at this gas station at about the same time of night multiple times when I was going from ND to MN and back. The card (Citibank Visa) had a large open credit line, but it somehow got rejected because (and I quote) "they installed new software"[1]. This was a bit before I had a cellphone and luckil…

I was traveling in the middle of nowhere once, and planned to arrive at a particular gas station before they closed (at 10PM). I was delayed and was low on gas when I pulled into the only gas station for miles around. It was completely dark, all the lights off, and no one there. But the pumps were active, so I put in my credit card, pumped, paid, and drove off. So, I for one, am happy credit cards are there :) And th…

For sure, the credit card at the pump has been an amazing convenience for rural areas. I do love the ability, but it is a pain when the credit card company’s software doesn’t feel you need that convenience.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#456

Post by scurvy »

ptr wrote: post #429
scurvy wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not being snarky, but there are homeless people in Sweden? In the US we're regaled with tales of the Scandanavian social safety nets. We're told everyone is taken care of. That's not the case?

Those that want help can get it — you can’t force help on everyone, and you need to be a legal citizen. Some are visiting from other EU countries.

Interesting that they can't force people into help. Some Western democracies have provisions for forcing people into help: UK with the previous ASBO laws, US with wards of the state, and even San Francisco targeting 100 "most hopeless homeless" to be forced into help.

It's very odd to me that you need to be a citizen to get benefits. California takes care of everyone -- citizen or not.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#457

Post by icebraining »

xrd wrote: post #339
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that more convenient than a bank transfer? Now the other party needs to sign up to a bitcoin exchange.

I'd say absolutely. I don't know of a bank where I can set up an account completely online through an app, which you can do with cex.io or coinbase. It's gotten harder but generally you create an account and then upload your ID and then can buy very soon afterwards. That makes it tenable in my opinion to ask even the most Luddite of friends to do it before the event and then pay people back that way.

I don't know of a bank where I can set up an account completely online through an app

In my EU country, there are already six banks that let you do this, and I doubt we're pioneers.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#458

Post by greglindahl »

llukas wrote: post #336
XorNot wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Because I lack mental discipline a technology must be bad" This is an argument in the same vein as any number of self-assured blog posts which do the rounds through HN of "Why I stopped using X" and "Y considered harmful". Power to your friends maybe, but it's not an argument one way or another over the merits of the system - its an argument about things they do personally to ensure self-discipline.

Youre blaming victims - if system makes it harder for people to be in control this is systems property not peoples - youre making "fundamental attribution error".

They don't think they're victims, they think they found a system that works for them. And they don't think it should be what everyone does. I had no idea that such a simple story would attract such strong reactions.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#459

Post by rs23296008n1 »

Moru wrote: post #319
xrd wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the downvoters: care to say why? I read the entire article, read the comment I'm referring to, and have personal experience that the solution I'm proposing works as I'm describing. I'm left with only that everyone must think my question reeks of crypto currency evangelism, and that's a BAD thing here on HN. Is it something else? My grammar or phrasing?

Im just guessing but replacing something that is used by almost everyone here in sweden with something almost noone uses is a bit counter productive. Just start using cash again would be the easiest solution. Swift payments is mostly used to accept payment easy and costfree between private people at fleamarkets and similar since noone carries cash any more.

Network effects and the "good enough" effect. At some point no one used swish. Then it became useful for some and then it became useful for many. Then it became the "must have" or "should have" for everyone else.

Crypto's could do this. They just aren't set up as easy right now. I'm pointing at bitcoin etc. They are also slow. I can tap my MasterCard contactless card/phone and pay for coffee and the merchant is happy. I've had bitcoin take >30 minutes to transfer. Unacceptably slow.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#460

Post by Aeolun »

EthanHeilman wrote: post #33
tjoff wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but the main point of an e-krona is exactly to try and reduce that risk. One of the proposed goals is to have non-traceable transactions. Seems unrealistic to me but that would be the holy grail.

We have known how to do untraceable* transactions [0] since 1982. There has now been thirty years of cryptographic research building on these results. The reason it hasn't happened is not because we can't do it but because governments resist the additional privacy protections. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecash * - For some values of untracable. The privacy provided by ecash is in theory less than cash provides…

Even if they store the serial numbers on cash, there is no name linked to those numbers without you also using something like a store/coupon card.
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