Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#21

Post by CydeWeys » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 6:30 PM UTC

fernly wrote: post #6

Hmmm... quote, > The basic concept for e-krona is as follows: it would be digital, and have a 1-to-1 conversion with an ordinary krona held in an account at the Riksbank or stored locally, for example on a card or in a mobile phone app. > The technology to build a functioning e-krona is already available today. It is not dependent on using distributed ledger technology and it is not to be confused with cryptocurrenci…

Central ledgers long predate blockchains and are widely used, i.e. by all banks.

The only 'novelty' here is that it'd be run by the central bank and accessed directly by consumers.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#22

Post by thomastjeffery » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 6:31 PM UTC

jamesblonde wrote: post #17

As a resident of Sweden, i can only say that this is the future for all western countries. Life is just better without cash. We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center. Your phone is enough to get you through the day. The govt is still run by the people for the people here, so most people aren't worried about totalitarianism. Most beggars now have signs wit…

I think you are confusing "without cash" with "with digital payment methods".

The vast majority of Americans rarely use cash, but that doesn't make it worthless to us.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#23

Post by zzzcpan » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 6:31 PM UTC

tjoff wrote: post #18

CPLX wrote: post #14

A society without cash is a society in which every person has no choice but to get the permission of someone they don’t know and will never meet each and every time they seek to obtain food, water, shelter, or transportation, and that permission can be revoked instantly, silently, and invisibly at any time.

I agree, but the main point of an e-krona is exactly to try and reduce that risk. One of the proposed goals is to have non-traceable transactions. Seems unrealistic to me but that would be the holy grail.

Untraceable anonymous transactions is the minimal requirement for it not to be harmful and dystopian.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#24

Post by kungtotte » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 6:32 PM UTC

jamesblonde wrote: post #17

As a resident of Sweden, i can only say that this is the future for all western countries. Life is just better without cash. We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center. Your phone is enough to get you through the day. The govt is still run by the people for the people here, so most people aren't worried about totalitarianism. Most beggars now have signs wit…

People who speak in absolute terms are always wrong.

I always have cash on me and it's extremely common here, 60 kilometres outside Stockholm, for people to not only carry cash but to actively use it.

A non-trivial amount of transactions in Sweden are still cash-based.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#25

Post by tjoff » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

jamesblonde wrote: post #17

As a resident of Sweden, i can only say that this is the future for all western countries. Life is just better without cash. We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center. Your phone is enough to get you through the day. The govt is still run by the people for the people here, so most people aren't worried about totalitarianism. Most beggars now have signs wit…

No. It isn't worth it. Life isn't better, but privacy non-existent and society is ridiculously fragile from outtakes (this isn't even factoring in that the systems could be actively attacked).

Yes it is the future, but we will be much worse for it.

/ Another swede.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#26

Post by kstenerud » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

jamesblonde wrote: post #17

As a resident of Sweden, i can only say that this is the future for all western countries. Life is just better without cash. We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center. Your phone is enough to get you through the day. The govt is still run by the people for the people here, so most people aren't worried about totalitarianism. Most beggars now have signs wit…

So if your phone dies or is lost or stolen, how do you pay for food with no phone?

How do you even buy a replacement phone if you have no phone to pay with?

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#27

Post by KaoruAoiShiho » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 6:35 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #14

A society without cash is a society in which every person has no choice but to get the permission of someone they don’t know and will never meet each and every time they seek to obtain food, water, shelter, or transportation, and that permission can be revoked instantly, silently, and invisibly at any time.

That's how services work though, you can't really be self sufficient unless you're a hunter gatherer. And even then you still need to be strong enough to kill the other tribes who are contesting with you for land. Imagine going to Mars and the very air you breathe is owned by your government. For me that's not an argument against going to mars, that's an argument for working harder to build a stronger, more trustworthy society.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#28

Post by tjoff » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 6:37 PM UTC

zzzcpan wrote: post #23

tjoff wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but the main point of an e-krona is exactly to try and reduce that risk. One of the proposed goals is to have non-traceable transactions. Seems unrealistic to me but that would be the holy grail.

Untraceable anonymous transactions is the minimal requirement for it not to be harmful and dystopian.

I agree, but unfortunately I don't believe a society being run by humans would ever implement that. The leaders will not tolerate that kind of loss of control.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#29

Post by intertextuality » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 6:38 PM UTC

KaoruAoiShiho wrote: post #27

CPLX wrote: post #14

A society without cash is a society in which every person has no choice but to get the permission of someone they don’t know and will never meet each and every time they seek to obtain food, water, shelter, or transportation, and that permission can be revoked instantly, silently, and invisibly at any time.

That's how services work though, you can't really be self sufficient unless you're a hunter gatherer. And even then you still need to be strong enough to kill the other tribes who are contesting with you for land. Imagine going to Mars and the very air you breathe is owned by your government. For me that's not an argument against going to mars, that's an argument for working harder to build a stronger, more trustwort…

This is a false comparison. Physical cash, in your possession, cannot be frozen or revoked unless those entities stop accepting government fiat currency. It has nothing to do with being self-sufficient.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#30

Post by nisse72 » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 6:38 PM UTC

jamesblonde wrote: post #17

As a resident of Sweden, i can only say that this is the future for all western countries. Life is just better without cash. We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center. Your phone is enough to get you through the day. The govt is still run by the people for the people here, so most people aren't worried about totalitarianism. Most beggars now have signs wit…

We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center.

That has never been necessary in Sweden, or (AFAIK) most other places. I have never known anyone outside of the US who carries cash for the express purpose of tipping. To the extent that tipping even exists in Sweden, it's usually just done by rounding up whatever is owed.