The Irresistible Urge to Build Cities from Scratch • Hacker News Board

Re: The Irresistible Urge to Build Cities from Scratch

#111

Post by icebraining » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 1:12 PM UTC

jdmichal wrote: post #88

jermaustin1 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd actually say that is close to an optimal traffic circle. I'd add an even inner-er-er lane, make the outside lane a mandatory exit. If you enter in the right lane, you exit. The middle lane connects to the left of each entrance, and is able to exit at ANY of the exits, and the most inner-er lane would allow you to potentially bypass a traffic jam at another exit.

I think what you're describing is GGP's second example: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.2981376,-73.935245,212m/data... In which case I agree completely. And, from what I can tell, they're about the same size, so IMO this was a design miss, not a space constraint. For me, it's all about the surprise factor. In my example, the outer lane almost goes all the way around. So you end up surprised after passing two exits a…

Yeah, that outer lane thing is weird, you should always be able to circle the roundabout (although you should be going on the inner lane, unless you know you're exiting next).

Re: The Irresistible Urge to Build Cities from Scratch

#112

Post by jermaustin1 » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 1:47 PM UTC

jpatokal wrote: post #73

jermaustin1 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first comment is accurate, no one uses turn signals in any of the ones I use on a daily basis either, but that doesn't make them inefficient. In fact I think it keeps everyone on the defensive, and makes them pay more attention before entering. But as I said in an earlier comment, the reason they kind of suck in the US is we don't seem to do them right. * A very wide circle (350ft/100m minimum) with 3 lanes * Ea…

Huh? That's only feasible for intersections of large roads, but American four-way stops are usually on small(ish) residential roads, where single-lane roundabouts work just fine.

No one is saying that roundabouts should replace ALL intersections, and the few they have in small residential places operate just fine with a single lane, but I'm skeptical of their value over a proper 4 way stop or a 4 way protect turn light.

Re: The Irresistible Urge to Build Cities from Scratch

#113

Post by burfog » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 4:58 PM UTC

eesmith wrote: post #108

burfog wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Being female only changes the nature of likely threats, slightly. Assume the example person is walking. Fear of crowds is the norm for people with a rural/suburban mindset. Evidently, people with an urban mindset actually feel safer in crowds, which is difficult for me to wrap my head around. The deserted road is safe, aside from wild animals. In a crowd, the more extreme rural/suburban people would be keeping th…

So, "urban" for you only means something like "urban core", eg, Manhattan, or the loop in Chicago, yes? Why should we believe that "Fear of crowds is the norm for people with a rural/suburban mindset" is correct? None of my aunts and uncles who were born and raised on a farm appear to have a fear of crowds. Most of them left the farm when they became adults ... and moved to cities. For certain, most people from subur…

I think "urban" is a bit more, but the line is blurry. Factors include a high portion of people who are dependent on landlords and public transportation, the mixing of residential with non-residential, and of course density.

Cities wouldn't exist if there weren't people attracted to them, and of course some of those people come from outside. Clearly your aunts and uncles did not have that suburban/rural mindset despite being raised there.

Street crowds are different from other ones. Suburban malls try to keep an eye on things, ejecting people who cause trouble. The same goes for football games, the fair, the rodeo, and so on.

Re: The Irresistible Urge to Build Cities from Scratch

#114

Post by burfog » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 5:05 PM UTC

eesmith wrote: post #106

burfog wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think all of us (you, me, cimmanom) are assuming that cul-de-sac layouts are not urban. Due to bad navigation, I walked through a bad area of western San Francisco on July 4 during mid day and then again on July 5 at around 2 AM. As a non-urban person I might be clueless, but I felt a lot less terrified with the deserted streets at 2 AM. Fewer people means fewer threats. I don't assume bystanders will somehow help…

I still don't know what you mean by "urban". I linked to a report concerning cul-de-sac streets in London. Do you think that I think London is not urban? I also linked to a Wikipedia page which makes an explicit connection between "suburbs", "urban planning" and culs-de-sac, at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_end_(street)#Suburban_use... . No one is seriously making the absolutist argument that "criminals aren't g…

I doubt all of London is urban. There might be an absurdly expensive neighborhood that isn't.

The line is blurry. Factors include a high portion of people who are dependent on landlords and public transportation, the mixing of residential with non-residential, and of course density.

It certainly is possible to have a cul-de-sac that is urban.

Re: The Irresistible Urge to Build Cities from Scratch

#115

Post by eesmith » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 6:13 PM UTC

burfog wrote: post #114

eesmith wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still don't know what you mean by "urban". I linked to a report concerning cul-de-sac streets in London. Do you think that I think London is not urban? I also linked to a Wikipedia page which makes an explicit connection between "suburbs", "urban planning" and culs-de-sac, at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_end_(street)#Suburban_use... . No one is seriously making the absolutist argument that "criminals aren't g…

I doubt all of London is urban. There might be an absurdly expensive neighborhood that isn't. The line is blurry. Factors include a high portion of people who are dependent on landlords and public transportation, the mixing of residential with non-residential, and of course density. It certainly is possible to have a cul-de-sac that is urban.

Let me get this straight. I linked to a report which included culs-de-sac in London, and with a map of the streets.

You responded "I think all of us (you, me, cimmanom) are assuming that cul-de-sac layouts are not urban."

So your belief is that I looked at a map of a part of London, assumed it was not urban, but was instead some 'absurdly expensive neighborhood that isn't urban'?

I am growing more convinced that I cannot place weight on your assumptions.

Which Wells Fargo museum robbery you are thinking of which took place during the day. Can you at least tell me what year it was?

Re: The Irresistible Urge to Build Cities from Scratch

#116

Post by eesmith » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 6:27 PM UTC

burfog wrote: post #113

eesmith wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, "urban" for you only means something like "urban core", eg, Manhattan, or the loop in Chicago, yes? Why should we believe that "Fear of crowds is the norm for people with a rural/suburban mindset" is correct? None of my aunts and uncles who were born and raised on a farm appear to have a fear of crowds. Most of them left the farm when they became adults ... and moved to cities. For certain, most people from subur…

I think "urban" is a bit more, but the line is blurry. Factors include a high portion of people who are dependent on landlords and public transportation, the mixing of residential with non-residential, and of course density. Cities wouldn't exist if there weren't people attracted to them, and of course some of those people come from outside. Clearly your aunts and uncles did not have that suburban/rural mindset despi…

It seems like when I try to pin you down, you add more qualifiers.

You first wrote "Fear of crowds is the norm for people with a rural/suburban mindset". Now you say it's, what, 'fear of being in insufficiently observed areas'?

I really don't understand that. So Times Square is okay because while there are crowds there are also a lot of cops?

Here's a cop van on Times Square. I literally did "Times Square" in Google Map, switch to street view, and rotated to see the van - https://www.google.com/maps/@40.758673,-73.984968,3a,75y,21....

You wrote "suburban/rural mindset" but when I point out that I know who were raised on a farm and don't have a fear of crowds, you now qualify that to "some people"?

I think your view is now the much weaker "some people from rural areas don't like being in areas where there aren't enough police or security guards or other people watching out for their safety"?

That's obviously true - white flight occurred in part as urban whites moved to areas where they felt the local government was more interested in keeping them safe from having to deal with non-whites.

I know that's not what you meant. I bring it up to point out how your statements are so general that they seem more over-generalized than insightful.

Re: The Irresistible Urge to Build Cities from Scratch

#117

Post by eesmith » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 8:33 PM UTC

cimmanom wrote: post #107

burfog wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Being female only changes the nature of likely threats, slightly. Assume the example person is walking. Fear of crowds is the norm for people with a rural/suburban mindset. Evidently, people with an urban mindset actually feel safer in crowds, which is difficult for me to wrap my head around. The deserted road is safe, aside from wild animals. In a crowd, the more extreme rural/suburban people would be keeping th…

You’d keep a hand on a firearm just because here are 3-5 other people on the same 250-foot long stretch of concrete? That’s the most antisocial thing I’ve ever heard. And yeah, that would make it unsafe.

I'm pretty sure that "the more extreme rural/suburban people would be keeping their hand near a concealed weapon" does not include black rural farmers visiting the big city.

Re: The Irresistible Urge to Build Cities from Scratch

#118

Post by rayiner » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

provolone wrote: post #102

rayiner wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe the lights reported are because the roundabout has outlived its usefulness? A stopgap before ripping it out. Yes, the roundabouts here in D.C. long ago outlived their usefulness. Unfortunately, ripping them out probably isn't in the cards.

Compare Dupont Circle to Connecticut & K st. Down at K & Conn. they need to use at least 5 traffic officers to direct the flow during peak times. Meanwhile Dupont circle handles P street, 19th street, Connecticut avenue, Massachusetts avenue, and New Hampshire avenue. Plus there is the pedestrian traffic from the park and the metro stop at Dupont. Can you imagine doing that with only traffic lights? How many officers…

New York and Chicago manage to handle streets just as busy with regular 4-way intersections. The problem with any K street intersection is the bizarre access roads on each side that confuse drivers to ill effect.

Re: The Irresistible Urge to Build Cities from Scratch

#119

Post by cimmanom » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 10:41 PM UTC

eesmith wrote: post #117

cimmanom wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’d keep a hand on a firearm just because here are 3-5 other people on the same 250-foot long stretch of concrete? That’s the most antisocial thing I’ve ever heard. And yeah, that would make it unsafe.

I'm pretty sure that "the more extreme rural/suburban people would be keeping their hand near a concealed weapon" does not include black rural farmers visiting the big city.

I have no idea what you mean by this comment. Or especially what ethnicity has to do with any of it.

Re: The Irresistible Urge to Build Cities from Scratch

#120

Post by eesmith » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 11:15 PM UTC

cimmanom wrote: post #119

eesmith wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that "the more extreme rural/suburban people would be keeping their hand near a concealed weapon" does not include black rural farmers visiting the big city.

I have no idea what you mean by this comment. Or especially what ethnicity has to do with any of it.

I don't know what ethnicity has to do with it either.

In the US, black skin is associated with the socially constructed term 'race'.

What I mean by this is that in the US, carrying guns has been something that whites do much more often than blacks. Historically, when blacks try to exercise their rights to carry weapons, as the Black Panthers did in the 1960s, white politicians passed laws to take those rights away, like the Mulford Act.

African-Americans surely know of events like the shooting of Philando Castile, who had a concealed weapon, informed the officer that he had a concealed weapon, and was shot by the officer who, IMO, was scared of the idea of a black man carrying a gun.

There are plenty of African-American farm workers - farmers for generations even. They must certainly have a "rural" mindset, by your definition.

How many of them fit into the category of the type of "extreme rural/suburban people [who] would be keeping their hand near a concealed weapon"? Knowing that if they are stopped by the police there is a much higher chance of harassment?

Quoting then governor Ronald Reagan, after the passing of the Mulford Act: "There’s no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons."