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Spectre.css – A Lightweight, Responsive and Modern CSS Framework

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Re: Spectre.css – A Lightweight, Responsive and Modern CSS Framework

#101

Post by Zelphyr »

avip wrote: post #48
osdiab wrote: post #23

The more web development I’ve done the more I’ve swung back to just writing CSS myself rather than depending on CSS frameworks; I’ve ended up seeing these less as ways to accelerate development for a team that is skilled at frontend, but instead as a way for people who don’t like styling or have little experience in frontend development/low design sense to style things reasonably. But I keep seeing frontend framework…

As a "non-fluent CSS user", I find it challenging and frustrating to maintain visual consistency and cross-browser compatibility without frameworks. I totally appreciate the fact it's me being lazy to really learn CSS who is at fault. Think of it like different construction methods - you can build something, let's say the Pyramids, or you can take something already built and beautiful, but is not what you need, and s…

Except that with using a framework you have a big black box of unknowns. And they will remain unknowns to you unless and until you take the time to dive into the internals of the framework (StackOverflow only gets you so far), at which point you might as well learn CSS.

So what happens when the framework does something unexpected? Or, as is more often the case, you run into a situation where you need to do something to satisfy the requirements of your project that the framework simply didn't think of? Again, you can dive into the internals of the framework to figure it out.

I'm arguing that in the long term you're better off learning CSS. Then you KNOW you can do what needs to be done. And with CSS you can still use a framework if you want but fall back to pure CSS if and when you need to.

Re: Spectre.css – A Lightweight, Responsive and Modern CSS Framework

#102

Post by matchbok »

dmitriid wrote: post #38
matchbok wrote: post #3

I'm just gonna say it. We don't need another "lightweight, responsive, modern" CSS framework. It's a solved problem.

In which way is it solved? It takes insanely hard work to pull off a consistent cross-component design in CSS.

Pick one of the 100+ frameworks that do 100% of what this one does.

Re: Spectre.css – A Lightweight, Responsive and Modern CSS Framework

#103

Post by 52-6F-62 »

jazoom wrote: post #7

I've been using this for years. Did something significant happen with it?

Same, not in anything intensive. Used it for my home/blog page. Looks like they definitely extended it further. I've liked the results better than some other lightweight frameworks. Didn't customize it much, either. Site's in my profile.

Re: Spectre.css – A Lightweight, Responsive and Modern CSS Framework

#104

Post by Raphmedia »

osdiab wrote: post #23

The more web development I’ve done the more I’ve swung back to just writing CSS myself rather than depending on CSS frameworks; I’ve ended up seeing these less as ways to accelerate development for a team that is skilled at frontend, but instead as a way for people who don’t like styling or have little experience in frontend development/low design sense to style things reasonably. But I keep seeing frontend framework…

> But I keep seeing frontend frameworks on HN

They are very popular on HN because the main users here are not front-end engineers or designers. They are hackers who want a quick landing page for their project. Those quick and dirty frameworks are perfect for it.

Re: Spectre.css – A Lightweight, Responsive and Modern CSS Framework

#105

Post by wild_preference »

matchbok wrote: post #102
dmitriid wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In which way is it solved? It takes insanely hard work to pull off a consistent cross-component design in CSS.

Pick one of the 100+ frameworks that do 100% of what this one does.

I didn't think any of them looked as good as Spectre.css for my project.

Next?

Re: Spectre.css – A Lightweight, Responsive and Modern CSS Framework

#106

Post by wild_preference »

jaytaylor wrote: post #19
ahreflink wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God forbid someone tries to monetize a project he's spent over two and a half years developing/maintaining..

Perhaps I should clarify. I've got no issue with engineers seeking compensation for their work. I know the world can be a harsh place, and some people truly need the money. Michael, you're absolutely right. People can insert whatever markup and JS they choose. It simply seems an odd strategy for a CSS framework to squeak by on ads in the docs. An unfortunate side effect in this case is it makes it unclear what parts…

Can you seriously say it's hard to distinguish the ads from content here with a straight face?

Bootstrap 3 docs had ads too.

Re: Spectre.css – A Lightweight, Responsive and Modern CSS Framework

#107

Post by wild_preference »

Zelphyr wrote: post #97
cptskippy wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I share your sentiment about frameworks, I work in enterprise app development and I can't remember the last time I encountered someone else who had a firm grasp of CSS or even the Frameworks. Our organization adopted Bootstrap because it's a consistent and familiar framework and it takes less time for the inexperienced developers (most in my experience) to come up to speed on an app. When you have 20 developers…

This, in my opinion, is why frameworks of any ilk exist at all. Too many developers out there don't want to take the time to learn the language and the frameworks give them a (false, again, my opinion) sense of productivity. But, especially with CSS, I really don't see the value provided by a framework. CSS isn't hard to learn or master! And as OP suggested, doing so means you get more done with less code. I know a g…

Frameworks aren't at odds with knowing CSS or any other language. You're missing the point with "CSS isn't hard!"

And you're wrong. CSS is incredibly hard to maintain. It easily becomes an append-only list of rules. Medium.com for example hired a team a CSS developers including a co-creator of Bootstrap just to work full-time on its CSS.

This is a good example of developer hubris and the HN trope of "it isn't that hard, why don't other idiot devs just do ? It must be because they're incompetent." I'm not convinced you've drunk your own Kool-aid in production on a non-trivial project. Because then the trade-offs would be obvious to you and you wouldn't think one is better.

Re: Spectre.css – A Lightweight, Responsive and Modern CSS Framework

#108

Post by thomasz »

Zelphyr wrote: post #97
cptskippy wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I share your sentiment about frameworks, I work in enterprise app development and I can't remember the last time I encountered someone else who had a firm grasp of CSS or even the Frameworks. Our organization adopted Bootstrap because it's a consistent and familiar framework and it takes less time for the inexperienced developers (most in my experience) to come up to speed on an app. When you have 20 developers…

This, in my opinion, is why frameworks of any ilk exist at all. Too many developers out there don't want to take the time to learn the language and the frameworks give them a (false, again, my opinion) sense of productivity. But, especially with CSS, I really don't see the value provided by a framework. CSS isn't hard to learn or master! And as OP suggested, doing so means you get more done with less code. I know a g…

CSS is incredibly hard to learn and master. Everything is extremely unintuitive and subjected to subtle inconsistencies between browsers and browser versions. It’s just that we’ve been living with this insanity for so long that we fail to see it for what it is.

Re: Spectre.css – A Lightweight, Responsive and Modern CSS Framework

#109

Post by wild_preference »

Zelphyr wrote: post #101
avip wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a "non-fluent CSS user", I find it challenging and frustrating to maintain visual consistency and cross-browser compatibility without frameworks. I totally appreciate the fact it's me being lazy to really learn CSS who is at fault. Think of it like different construction methods - you can build something, let's say the Pyramids, or you can take something already built and beautiful, but is not what you need, and s…

Except that with using a framework you have a big black box of unknowns. And they will remain unknowns to you unless and until you take the time to dive into the internals of the framework (StackOverflow only gets you so far), at which point you might as well learn CSS. So what happens when the framework does something unexpected? Or, as is more often the case, you run into a situation where you need to do something…

Now apply what you said to the mess of style.css that the churn of developers before you has appended to on an as-needed basis.

Except nobody has the time nor role to organize and maintain your project's CSS like Spectre.css' developer could. And nobody wants to because CSS accumulates technical debt rapidly. Everyone opens up that file just long enough to do what they need and then they get out before the house of cards falls down. To avoid adding rules that break existing UI, they add a new class and a new rule just for that class to be safe.

And let's say you're a CSS master. Which doesn't help all that much beyond being able to maneuver in the mess that was created. The above paragraph happens in projects where everyone knows CSS just like a project can evolve into spaghetti code between capable developers over the terrain of changing requirements. And being a CSS master equips you to understand a CSS framework too, so I don't understand why you keep alluding that CSS knowledge makes frameworks obsolete. I'd rather read organized framework code than whatever the bespoke clusterfuck people end up when left to their own devices under the constraint of time and deadlines.

Frameworks help contain complexity. They aren't just a tool for beginners and non-professionals.

You're making the wrong assumption that messes in programming are only made by not knowing the language. I remember thinking the same thing at my first job out of uni, but I was quickly straightened out at my first job when I realized that being good at a language meant almost squat against the real reasons: real world applications fighting between churning requirements, business concerns, and scarce developer resources like time.

Re: Spectre.css – A Lightweight, Responsive and Modern CSS Framework

#110

Post by wvenable »

manigandham wrote: post #31
mmcclure wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really do hate to be the guy this guy, but after having to maintain a website a contractor built in Tachyons, I've hated it with a passion of [insert hyperbolic phrase here]. What do you love about it/what am I missing? For me it felt like a tutorial on the most egregious CSS/dom anti-patterns, and I haven't been able to get past it.

The patterns are easy to learn (for me) and makes building components very quick while still being very customizable without having to add a whole bunch of one-off styles. And everything is still standardized. It also removes the need to constantly reference CSS at all, and can just stick to HTML/JSX instead. It can get very verbose though, but that's a minor trade-off I think.

It's a direct 1-to-1 mapping to inline styles so why not just use inline styles? If the answer is "standardization" then using CSS as it is normally used is the logical conclusion of that concept.
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