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As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

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Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#521

Post by repolfx »

KirinDave wrote: post #506
repolfx wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jordan Peterson said it best: There is no wage gap. There is an earnings gap. So, nobody is suggesting that wage gaps are fake. They're asserting it as undisputable fact. Find a place where men and women of equal experience, time at work and so on are being paid differently because of their gender and you have an easy lawsuit on your hands. In practice this doesn't happen because such discrimination doesn't happen. W…

> Find a place where men and women of equal experience, time at work and so on are being paid differently because of their gender and you have an easy lawsuit on your hands. In practice this doesn't happen because such discrimination doesn't happen. There are hundreds to thousands of such lawsuits every year. And within a month of California rolling back forced arbitration, more popped up. Including 2 high profile cl…

There's a list someone is maintaining here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gender_equality_lawsui...

It only has one in the last three years. Moreover, a quick news search for 'gender pay discrimination lawsuit' shows that most news articles discussing such things are actually more about #metoo / sexual harrassment stuff and always only allegations, it's much harder to find reports of actual findings of systematic discrimination. And in the rare cases it has happened, it's always arguable because the jobs are usually not directly comparable e.g. high level executives where personal performance can vary wildly and people are comparing across quite different jobs but claiming they're equal.

Your reply doesn't give me any new information to work with, and my own experiences and checks says this doesn't happen. In cases where men are getting paid more than women, it's usually because they're being more effective, not because their boss explicitly decided women should get paid less.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#522

Post by faceplanted »

esaym wrote: post #141
faceplanted wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Jordan Peterson any better in person than he seems in his book? I read it after a friend recommended it and he seemed completely insufferable and possibly mildly autistic based on what seemed like a real lack of understanding of the internal lives of others. Lots of people seem to like him, but I can't bring myself to watch him speak in person since everything I see just traversing the internet is framed as him "d…

His book is a "self help" book. If you don't need help (or don't think you do), then yea, you might not like it... What I did find interesting were his interviews on the "joe rogan experience". There are three of them on youtube, here is the newest one: https://youtu.be/9Xc7DN-noAc

I absolutely do feel like I'd appreciate help, but I've read significantly more helpful and less abrasive books for my situation, maybe the difference is that while I want help, I don't feel disaffected by modern society, and that stripped down Christian conservatism isn't an appealing philosophy as someone who had to leave the religion.

If it's any consolation, I did like the chapter titles, each one was generally a good piece of advice, it was the content and justifications that were the issue.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#523

Post by faceplanted »

0x445442 wrote: post #175
faceplanted wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Jordan Peterson any better in person than he seems in his book? I read it after a friend recommended it and he seemed completely insufferable and possibly mildly autistic based on what seemed like a real lack of understanding of the internal lives of others. Lots of people seem to like him, but I can't bring myself to watch him speak in person since everything I see just traversing the internet is framed as him "d…

> a real lack of understanding of the internal lives of others. He had a successful clinical psychology practice for years. I'm not sure that's possible if your suspicion is true.

You have a point, it came across as lack of understanding, when it could equally have been disregard.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#524

Post by faceplanted »

tathougies wrote: post #408
faceplanted wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Jordan Peterson any better in person than he seems in his book? I read it after a friend recommended it and he seemed completely insufferable and possibly mildly autistic based on what seemed like a real lack of understanding of the internal lives of others. Lots of people seem to like him, but I can't bring myself to watch him speak in person since everything I see just traversing the internet is framed as him "d…

> possibly mildly autistic Is having mild autism a bad thing? Why? By itself, stating that someone may be 'mildly autistic' has no bearing on the validity of their ideas.

It's not a bad thing, it can be unfortunate for the person anyway, it was just one of my observations.

Also I wasn't arguing his ideas, I was asking if his speaking worth spending the time on after his book was lacklustre.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#525

Post by faceplanted »

beaconstudios wrote: post #122
faceplanted wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Jordan Peterson any better in person than he seems in his book? I read it after a friend recommended it and he seemed completely insufferable and possibly mildly autistic based on what seemed like a real lack of understanding of the internal lives of others. Lots of people seem to like him, but I can't bring myself to watch him speak in person since everything I see just traversing the internet is framed as him "d…

what about your reading of the book made you think he doesn't understand the internal lives of others? I read the book and didn't get that impression at all. sure, there's a lot of "feminist owned by Peterson's logic" stuff out there, but that's the culture war for you.

> what about your reading of the book made you think he doesn't understand the internal lives of others?

Maybe not "doesn't understand", it could just be disregard.

Very simply the book seems uphold a philosophy that ignores that other people might have actual struggles and histories.

I have a couple specific examples I can put up when I'm out of the office.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#526

Post by beaconstudios »

faceplanted wrote: post #525
beaconstudios wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what about your reading of the book made you think he doesn't understand the internal lives of others? I read the book and didn't get that impression at all. sure, there's a lot of "feminist owned by Peterson's logic" stuff out there, but that's the culture war for you.

> what about your reading of the book made you think he doesn't understand the internal lives of others? Maybe not "doesn't understand", it could just be disregard. Very simply the book seems uphold a philosophy that ignores that other people might have actual struggles and histories. I have a couple specific examples I can put up when I'm out of the office.

I read it as being optimistic that people can shoulder their burdens and work to improve their lot, without dismissing the fact that people do have outsized burdens compared to others. I mean, he talks about his familial issues with chronic depression and his daughter's horrifying medical problems, I can't think of anything more emblematic of "actual struggles".

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#527

Post by toxik »

DougN7 wrote: post #344
toxik wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still pay the opportunity cost, even if you are getting a monthly income. Why should I hire the person who was away for a solid year on parental leave over the guy who has been working diligently during that time? Forcing parents to have equal amounts of parental leave, as we do in Sweden (well, we incentivized it,) is a form of imposed equality of outcome. Equality of outcome is often said to be some disease of…

> Going against our primal instincts is essential for a productive society. I’m debating with myself about that statement. Is the goal of society a high amount of productivity, or stable, happy families and relationships? It seems means and ends are getting mixed up.

That's a very interesting question. I would say the point in society is to organize and through this organization improve overall prosperity and happiness in the society. A chaotic society will be outperformed in most metrics by an ordered society. Order is therefore beneficial to society, and to individuals by extension.

Stable, happy families are those that don't need to worry about the necessities of life, don't need to worry about their income stream going up in smoke. This is where productivity enters the picture, because a given society can lose the productivity race, and therefore its prosperity. It results in negative impacts on the population of that society.

This paints the financial crisis in new light, where a societal function has been so rotted from the inside that it is able to damage every globalized society on earth. These people should be made examples of, but sadly, the power is so indirect, and the nepotism so strong.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#528

Post by iron0013 »

dijit wrote: post #517
KirinDave wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't tell you how _not_ offended I am. Just take my word for the fact that I couldn't really give a shit, I'm here to have my world view opened up not force my opinions down anyones throats.. unless it comes to systemd. I get offended by systemd. This is an extremely normal thing for a person who is not mad and not offended to write. Your self-imposed nihilistic stoicism is cracking. You're mad because you don't…

Wow, I've responded cogently, earnestly and in good faith to everything you've posted. This behaviour is pathetic. Please do not treat people like this in real life.

To this reader, nothing you've written is cogent, earnest, or in good faith, fwiw. I'm seeing a lot of projection, dissembly, disingenuousness, and now insults. Mods, are you seeing this or what?

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#530

Post by kpil »

LyndsySimon wrote: post #270
avar wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative is equality of opportunity. If some people in society want to do some activity knowing they won't build job experience while doing so, let them, even if other people don't want to and become more employable as a result. That's freedom. Whether e.g. women on average tend to take more parental leave is only a small subset of those sorts of situations in society. I (a man) took a months-long parental lea…

A similar but slightly different anecdote - I'm a 34-year-old man, and my wife stays home with our two children. We're very aware that this has hurt her earning potential, which means that if I were to die suddenly she'd be in a real financial crisis. To offset that disparity in earning potential, we've had to purchase significant life and disability policies on me.

Money isn't everything. If you can afford it spend as much time as you can with your kids if you have the chance.

If you are a mere 'Salaryman' there's no way your loss of income is worth more than the experience and relationship you gain.

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