Google Plans Large New York City Expansion • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Plans Large New York City Expansion

#221

Post by hnmcQIOoQUDv » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 2:19 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #118

choot wrote: post #108

One of the reason is that, people who are incharge of these decisions are invested in these cities. They've real estate in these cities. So, using public money of the company to invest in these cities increase the value of their personal investments :) It won't be changing anytime sooner. Shareholders aren't bothered. I wouldn't be surprized if majority of shareholders by value live in these cities too.

I don't remember the actual source, so it might just be a funny anecdote. But I remember reading that after WW2 a lot of US companies were expanding and looking for new headquarters. They'd commission huge research teams to find the best location for the new headquarters, spend a lot of time and effort to find a good place. A book written about 10 or 15 years after many of these companies found that almost invariably…

IBM did this, and cunningly bought land in the weird area where Connecticut cuts into Westchester County, NY. This let them put the HQ near exec homes but routinely threaten to move HQ to the other state in order to extract tax benefits from NY. "Moving" to the other state simply would mean building a new building ~500 feet across the state line, barely changing anyone's commute.

Re: Google Plans Large New York City Expansion

#222

Post by ghaff » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 2:19 PM UTC

throwawaymath wrote: post #202

emddudley wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me the idea of living in NYC is depressing. I think overall the US would have a better quality of life if industry was not so concentrated in major cities. Fewer people would need to make trade-offs between their jobs and lifestyle.

I live in NYC and I’m not going to try to change your mind, but out of curiosity what don’t you like about it? Winter? The smell? Too many people?

As someone who has lived there and likes visiting, there's a lot to hate about NYC.

It's expensive. The fact that it's sometimes held out as being reasonable compared to the Bay Area says more about the Bay Area than NYC.

You can't conveniently/inexpensively own a car. Which is an advantage for some. Not so much for others who like hopping in the car to run a quick errand.

The crush of people all the time.

It's "gritty." Not 1980s gritty any longer but still. (Smell, noise, homelessness (not SF levels but that's an awfully low bar).

Basically, it's an urban landscape on steroids even compared to, say, London. That's not necessarily bad but a few days of it is about my limit.

Re: Google Plans Large New York City Expansion

#223

Post by TulliusCicero » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 2:19 PM UTC

marz0 wrote: post #188

TulliusCicero wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rest of the country desperately needs real industry and good paying jobs - and will go to huge lengths to try to get them No they don't. Tax breaks aren't enough. One of the big reasons a lot of people really like NYC is that it's one of the few cities in the US that actually feels like a city. NYC is urbanist in a way that relatively few American cities are (and most of the other cities in this category are al…

Philadelphia

Ooh, that's a good choice. Philly isn't more conservative, but it is cheaper and I'm given to understand it's one of the more urbanist cities in the US (probably because of its age). I'm sure I can still find some things, though.

* Very few miles of protected bike lanes, although at least things are looking up there for the future: https://bicyclecoalition.org/our-campaigns/30-miles-of-prote... (although the fact that 30 miles is celebrated as some big achievement is itself telling)

* Two subway lines is better than most US cities, but still not very many for a metro of this size. Munich has a comparable metro population and has 8 subway lines, for example, not to mention several separated-grade commuter/rapid transit lines that go way out into the burbs. Looks like high quality, rapid transit is still close by for only a small percentage of Philadelphians. It also sounds like the regional rail system is in disrepair.

* Looking at the zoning map, it looks like implementation of mixed use zoning is much better than most US cities, but still very limited in many neighborhoods, which limits walkability: https://openmaps.phila.gov/

* Also from the zoning map, many areas are still zoned just for single-family homes, which limits walkability/bikeability (and also encourages economic segregation, to boot).

Philly's level of urbanism should really be like the bare minimum for US cities, but in reality it's close to the top, I think.

Re: Google Plans Large New York City Expansion

#224

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 2:20 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #192

lotsofpulp wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the suburbs in NJ within reasonable commuting distance (door to door in 45 min max reliably) offer all the drawbacks of the city with none of the benefits of the suburb. You get a little more space, but not enough. A little less traffic, but still a lot of traffic. No decent gyms or parks, unless you like paying out the nose. And super high and ever increasing taxes. And I think even a 45 min door to door…

I don’t know much about NJ. I lived in Westchester and it was great. Not sprawling exurbs by any means, but that’s a good thing. You can live in Rye or Pehlam and walk or bike to the Metro North station. MNR is very reliable, runs frequently at rush hour, and will get you downtown in 30-40 flat.

Yes, NJ Transit has to borrow Amtrak's tunnel and it frequently has problems, as does NJ Transit's stuff. MTA/NY infrastructure is much better, but still, I don't see how one can get from Rye or Pehlam to downtown in 40 min.

https://goo.gl/maps/DYvaWBSLFcP2 1h15m from Rye train station to Fulton subway station on a Tue morning

https://goo.gl/maps/TdQN5FhWF132 55m from Pelham station to Fulton subway.

So door to door, you're still looking at 70 min to 90 min commute one way, with the added stress of possibly dealing with train delays. I wouldn't be able to do that more than a couple years.

Re: Google Plans Large New York City Expansion

#225

Post by jasonlotito » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 2:20 PM UTC

marz0 wrote: post #188

TulliusCicero wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rest of the country desperately needs real industry and good paying jobs - and will go to huge lengths to try to get them No they don't. Tax breaks aren't enough. One of the big reasons a lot of people really like NYC is that it's one of the few cities in the US that actually feels like a city. NYC is urbanist in a way that relatively few American cities are (and most of the other cities in this category are al…

Philadelphia

Yeah, gotta admit here, Philly has done a good job. The public transit is good. I live an hour outside Philly, and taking the train in is a real option here because the trains are good and getting around once in city has never been an issue. Couple that with easy access to NYC itself, and it's even nicer. It's not perfect, but then neither is NYC.

Re: Google Plans Large New York City Expansion

#226

Post by throwawaymath » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 2:20 PM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #213

throwawaymath wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in NYC and I’m not going to try to change your mind, but out of curiosity what don’t you like about it? Winter? The smell? Too many people?

I live in Manhattan and work in Midtown. I love it here, but I'll give you my complaints (for whatever they're worth): 1. The traffic and noise in Midtown is downright oppressive. People just laying on their horns for basically no reason, giant trucks speeding by the mass of pedestrians. 2. Yes, too many people. This is also Midtown specific. I don't mind crowds and I like a busy streetscape, but Midtown reaches a le…

All of that sounds familiar, yeah. I’m in the same situation as you. I’m cautiously optimistic about buying an apartment in Manhattan, however (though Amazon moving half of HQ2 here won’t do me any favors on real estate prices).

With regard to #1: I’m somewhat hopeful that the new state senate shakeup will get Cuomo’s congestion pricing ideas implemented. Not sure if that will ultimately be good or bad, but it might alleviate traffic.

Re: Google Plans Large New York City Expansion

#227

Post by TulliusCicero » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 2:20 PM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #207

TulliusCicero wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* Almost no rail transit whatsoever, closest equivalent looks like a bus system that doesn't even have its own lanes, let alone being separated-grade. * I see a few off-street bike paths, but at a glance, no physically protected bike lanes. Maybe there are a few I'm missing, but if so, very few. Very few bike lanes in total, too. * Freeways cutting through the city * City is super sprawled out, looks like most of the…

I think there's less value to this kind of experience-living-in-a-city-via-google-maps than you're implying here.

To be sure, an actually thorough analysis would require firsthand experience (and I have visited Portland at least multiple times). It's just that most US cities are so very terrible at urbanism that it's easy to spot many of the massive flaws from Google Maps.

Re: Google Plans Large New York City Expansion

#228

Post by bradleyjg » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 2:21 PM UTC

taurath wrote: post #4

This coupled with the Amazon news is starting to get distressing. With the amount of companies that copycat them it’s like the rich are getting richer and the economic benefits are still going to be concentrated only in the most affluent cities. The rest of the country desperately needs real industry and good paying jobs - and will go to huge lengths to try to get them but it appears nobody can come up with a busines…

> This coupled with the Amazon news is starting to get distressing. With the amount of companies that copycat them it’s like the rich are getting richer and the economic benefits are still going to be concentrated only in the most affluent cities. The rest of the country desperately needs real industry and good paying jobs - and will go to huge lengths to try to get them but it appears nobody can come up with a business plan.

Why would godless, latte-sipping, well educated, coastal executives--some of whom weren't even born in this country--want to open up offices in places that have made it abundantly clear they hate people exactly like that?

Re: Google Plans Large New York City Expansion

#229

Post by mxuribe » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 2:21 PM UTC

TarpitCarnivore wrote: post #199

lotsofpulp wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you count the opportunity cost of the time, stress, and money you spend using NJTransit to commute into Manhattan, and especially if you’re commuting further into other boroughs, the tax savings of NJ turn into losses.

There's other ways into NYC from NJ that aren't the train. There are many ferry options along the hudson, and nothern shore area has a commuter ferry that is 40 minutes to Wall St.

I live in NJ, and from 2006-2010 worked in WFC near Wall Street...While the ferry option is nice and pleasant, it used to cost about 2.5~3 times MORE expensive than the PATH train (the "subway' that connects both sides of the Hudson). Also, the duration of the commute gets cut down only about 1.5~2 minutes (as compared to when the PATH is running without delays). Overall, not really sustainable - neither in time nor money. Though, as a tourist, yeah, the ferry is nice for its views of the skyline. ;-)

Re: Google Plans Large New York City Expansion

#230

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 2:22 PM UTC

alexhutcheson wrote: post #184

lotsofpulp wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you count the opportunity cost of the time, stress, and money you spend using NJTransit to commute into Manhattan, and especially if you’re commuting further into other boroughs, the tax savings of NJ turn into losses.

Lots of people live in Jersey City and take the PATH, which is a faster, cheaper, and more reliable commute than NJT. They still avoid NYC city tax and get cheaper and nicer apartments though.

Yes, Hobo/JC if you're near the Path station is an exception. But it doesn't apply to many people commuting into NYC.