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AT&T to cut off some customers' service in piracy crackdown

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Re: AT&T to cut off some customers' service in piracy crackdown

#111

Post by clairity »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #98
eiaoa wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what happens if your service is cut in error. Do you trust ATT to have a fair, easy appeals process? This is where many of the arguments against government regulation break down. If you take government out of the picture, you're still left dealing with massive institutions and bureaucratic regulations. The main difference is that those institutions are even less accountable to the average person than the government…

> This is where many of the arguments against government regulation break down. If you take government out of the picture, you're still left dealing with massive institutions and bureaucratic regulations. This is only true of uncompetitive markets. If Target refused to sell you clothes because someone made a false copyright infringement claim against you, you would laugh in their face and go shop at any of a thousand…

> "This is only true of uncompetitive markets. If Target refused to sell you clothes because someone made a false copyright infringement claim against you, you would laugh in their face and go shop at any of a thousand other stores. And for exactly that reason they don't even attempt to do things like that."

what you say would be true of (increasingly rare) mom-and-pop shops, but the relationship you use is highly asymmetric and favorable to the large bureaucratic organization, no matter the competitive dynamics of the market. target would be the one laughing in your face, not the customer.

the false dichotomy of preferring one bureaucracy over another because one is private and the other public is silly (in case it's unclear, you should prefer neither).

the rest of what you said is reasonable however. direct provision, direct subsidies, or removal of regulatory barriers in rural access would be better than the convoluted compromise we have now.

Re: AT&T to cut off some customers' service in piracy crackdown

#112

Post by notyourday »

vorpalhex wrote: post #63
dionidium wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The prosecution of Aaron Swartz, a farcical tragedy, has nothing to do with this story.

It has everything to do with the story because it shows that most copyright claims are done in absolute bad faith and consumers are given no real tools to defend themselves. Right now for the majority of people who get a DMCA, there is nothing they can do. There is no functional appeals process, there is no office in charge of handling bad DMCAs. Shy of actually going to court with a lawyer and attempting a suit, if…

Without defending AT&T:

Schwartz was prosecuted by a US Attorney. If anything he is a poster boy of over reach of government.

Re: AT&T to cut off some customers' service in piracy crackdown

#113

Post by autoexec »

ams6110 wrote: post #101
obblekk wrote: post #5

I’m sure many of us believe in following and enforcing laws (even flawed laws like 150yr copyright), but are still made uneasy by this development. I think the source of that discomfort is - what happens if your service is cut in error. Do you trust ATT to have a fair, easy appeals process? Competition in the form of space internet can’t come soon enough, not to enable pirates, but to ensure normal people have reason…

AT&T is not going to be too eager to cut your service. They want your $50 - $150/month (or more) if they can get it. FTA: The bottom line: Very few copyright infringers ever get booted from their broadband provider, pointing to the severity of these cases and the number of steps at which the customer is told they are violating copyright before they are cut off from AT&T's service. Copyright infringers are often illeg…

They might feel it's worth it to lose that money in the short term if they can make an example out of pirates and try to establish account termination for unproven allegations of infringement as an industry standard practice. Long term it isn't smart but there are media industry mouthpieces claiming they will be losing $52 billion to internet piracy by 2022. How many DSL customers will they be willing to drop if they think it'll help stop the billions their parent companies are "losing" annually.

Re: AT&T to cut off some customers' service in piracy crackdown

#114

Post by jameskegel »

paulcole wrote: post #92
cft wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law in America is enforced by the courts, not by private corporations.

If you break the law in my restaurant I can ask you to leave.

And you won’t be able to do anything but ask because you are not a police officer. ISP isn’t a court and restaurant operators aren’t officers of the law.

Re: AT&T to cut off some customers' service in piracy crackdown

#115

Post by autoexec »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #93
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #43

"Don't violate the law over our network" is not an unreasonable expectation, and "we will shut off service to people that violate the law using our network" is not an unreasonable penalty. It's hard to imagine any business of any kind taking the position "feel free to violate the law over our network" or deciding that they just won't do anything about it if people do. Imagine a restaurant that could see you operating…

My local phone company continues to serve me no matter how many laws I break using their service. My postal service continues to server me no matter how many laws I break using their service. Internet service providers should just be declared common carriers, and be done with it. When democrats eventually regain control of the congress and executive, I'm guessing this is what will be done.

democrats are huge supporters of the media companies pushing for stronger enforcement of copyrights. Obama was deep in bed with the RIAA and MPAA. Several of his appointments were RIAA lawyers. Don't automatically expect them to lead the way in copyright reform.

Re: AT&T to cut off some customers' service in piracy crackdown

#116

Post by craftyguy »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #20
wmf wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bargain compared to being on the wrong end of a federal copyright lawsuit.

It's cheaper than most court fees (whether those fees should exist is a different story).

You know what else is cheaper than court fees AND this ISP 'court' thing? Giving me $25. It's about as effective as this ISP 'court' thing too, maybe more since I promise that I will at least tell you "thank you."

Re: AT&T to cut off some customers' service in piracy crackdown

#117

Post by AnthonyMouse »

clairity wrote: post #111
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is where many of the arguments against government regulation break down. If you take government out of the picture, you're still left dealing with massive institutions and bureaucratic regulations. This is only true of uncompetitive markets. If Target refused to sell you clothes because someone made a false copyright infringement claim against you, you would laugh in their face and go shop at any of a thousand…

> "This is only true of uncompetitive markets. If Target refused to sell you clothes because someone made a false copyright infringement claim against you, you would laugh in their face and go shop at any of a thousand other stores. And for exactly that reason they don't even attempt to do things like that." what you say would be true of (increasingly rare) mom-and-pop shops, but the relationship you use is highly as…

> target would be the one laughing in your face, not the customer.

Target has a thousand competitors selling substantially identical products for similar prices. Walmart, Amazon, eBay, Kmart, Costco, Staples, J.C. Penney etc. They have no market power.

By contrast, if you can't get internet from Comcast you basically have to move to another state.

Re: AT&T to cut off some customers' service in piracy crackdown

#118

Post by getcrunk »

tantalor wrote: post #8

The podcast Reply-All had a good episode about why this is problematic earlier this year. https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/118 Excerpt: ALEX: So finally, I find this website that is called the Center for Copyright information. PJ: And what’s that? ALEX: It’s a website that is run by both the entertainment industry and the ISPs, they’re working together. And the deal is, if you feel that you have wrongly received…

This is a horrible idea. by engaging in this system you volunteer your identity information which up to this point the ISP has not provided to the copyright holder

Re: AT&T to cut off some customers' service in piracy crackdown

#119

Post by clairity »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #117
clairity wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "This is only true of uncompetitive markets. If Target refused to sell you clothes because someone made a false copyright infringement claim against you, you would laugh in their face and go shop at any of a thousand other stores. And for exactly that reason they don't even attempt to do things like that." what you say would be true of (increasingly rare) mom-and-pop shops, but the relationship you use is highly as…

> target would be the one laughing in your face, not the customer. Target has a thousand competitors selling substantially identical products for similar prices. Walmart, Amazon, eBay, Kmart, Costco, Staples, J.C. Penney etc. They have no market power. By contrast, if you can't get internet from Comcast you basically have to move to another state.

and yet, target can mark up their products higher on average than the competitors you named (e.g., http://blogs.marketwatch.com/great-columnist/2012/10/15/reta...). so they really have no market power? why do you think target spends so much on branding?

really understanding a firm's market power and the competitive dynamics of it's market requires a bit more depth than noting that products are similar.

(there are also different forms of market power, but i'll leave that for another day)

Re: AT&T to cut off some customers' service in piracy crackdown

#120

Post by paulcole »

jameskegel wrote: post #114
paulcole wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you break the law in my restaurant I can ask you to leave.

And you won’t be able to do anything but ask because you are not a police officer. ISP isn’t a court and restaurant operators aren’t officers of the law.

I can stop serving you and refuse to take your money. Kind of like AT&T is doing...
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