Apple walks Ars through the iPad Pro’s A12X system on a chip • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple walks Ars through the iPad Pro’s A12X system on a chip

#51

Post by Natela » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:09 PM UTC

camillomiller wrote: post #37

Svexav wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it have to be a laptop? What not an iPhone with a desktop mode you can pair with a monitor, keyboard, and trackpad? I’d love the ability to carry all my software and data around in a phone without lugging around a laptop or having to buy a desktop computer. And I’d love to never concern myself with transferring or syncing data again. And why not let us connect an iPhone to an eGPU for desktop gaming?

Look up what Tim Cook thinks about convergence. That is not what an iPhone is for. Period. This gimmick is just a pipedream of us nerds. It won't have the slightest chance in the market and it would be a subpar product. Both Huawei and Samsung have implemented such a solution on their flagship smartphones since at least two years. They work as advertised, but nobody could give half a shit about them.

Samsung didn't implement convergence, they implemented Android-with-a-keyboard-on-a-big-screen . True convergence would be something like Ubuntu Touch wanted to do

Re: Apple walks Ars through the iPad Pro’s A12X system on a chip

#52

Post by TYPE_FASTER » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:09 PM UTC

Svexav wrote: post #31

carlesfe wrote: post #13

Apple are paving the way to A-chip laptops, not only by building excellent tech, but also PR-wise. Their last keynote was clearly a gymnastics exercise to ignore Intel CPUs and dismiss laptop performance while later praising their own chips which power a tablet that has no software ready to use that much speed. The fact that one of the most secretive companies executes a PR-stunt by providing an exclusive interview t…

Why does it have to be a laptop? What not an iPhone with a desktop mode you can pair with a monitor, keyboard, and trackpad? I’d love the ability to carry all my software and data around in a phone without lugging around a laptop or having to buy a desktop computer. And I’d love to never concern myself with transferring or syncing data again. And why not let us connect an iPhone to an eGPU for desktop gaming?

I think CarPlay is a test of this use. It's really similar, in that you connect your device to your car, and apps render a different view on a different form factor. You have a certification process so you know you have at least a chance of a good user experience. It's a subset of device functionality, instead of supporting more functionality.

If Apple invests in enhancing CarPlay, it might be a sign that they are scaling to a wider convergence market. If they don't invest or abandon it, then maybe convergence won't happen. They're famous for saying they're not working on projects that they are actually working on, so we have to read between the lines.

After upgrading from an iPhone 6 to an iPhone XR, I've been thinking how close the latest gen devices are to traditional computers anyway. The configuration/settings and features are so far beyond the first gen devices that I think convergence will happen, nobody knows what it will look like yet.

Re: Apple walks Ars through the iPad Pro’s A12X system on a chip

#53

Post by mediocrejoker » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:13 PM UTC

carlesfe wrote: post #13

Apple are paving the way to A-chip laptops, not only by building excellent tech, but also PR-wise. Their last keynote was clearly a gymnastics exercise to ignore Intel CPUs and dismiss laptop performance while later praising their own chips which power a tablet that has no software ready to use that much speed. The fact that one of the most secretive companies executes a PR-stunt by providing an exclusive interview t…

Kind of ironic that, had Apple not hired Anand away from running Anandtech, they would probably still be the most respected tech outlet.

Re: Apple walks Ars through the iPad Pro’s A12X system on a chip

#54

Post by nrb » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:14 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #45

camillomiller wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look up what Tim Cook thinks about convergence. That is not what an iPhone is for. Period. This gimmick is just a pipedream of us nerds. It won't have the slightest chance in the market and it would be a subpar product. Both Huawei and Samsung have implemented such a solution on their flagship smartphones since at least two years. They work as advertised, but nobody could give half a shit about them.

You might be right, but I'd like to unpack that a little. Why would that be the case? Obviously, the laptop form factor is missing, but it would be...interesting if the iPad, iPhone, and MacBook were all pretty much the same compute device with different form factors and different battery sizes and possibly different storage sizes. Honestly, the form factor and user experience are going to be the biggest user-visible…

I think a lot of people (except maybe Apple shareholders) would be happy with a single physical device that handles a variety of use cases rather than paying Apple $1500 a pop, several times over, for the exact same hardware in different physical cases.

Re: Apple walks Ars through the iPad Pro’s A12X system on a chip

#55

Post by dieterrams » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:16 PM UTC

aaronblohowiak wrote: post #42

camillomiller wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look up what Tim Cook thinks about convergence. That is not what an iPhone is for. Period. This gimmick is just a pipedream of us nerds. It won't have the slightest chance in the market and it would be a subpar product. Both Huawei and Samsung have implemented such a solution on their flagship smartphones since at least two years. They work as advertised, but nobody could give half a shit about them.

I am on the other side of this bet. I believe it is just a matter of time and the Surface Pro / iPad Pro are paving the way for just that.

Agreed. I think it makes perfect sense to have a phone that can plug into a tablet or any other form factor. The thermals might not let you run an iPhone-in-tablet as fast as a dedicated iPad, but given how fast their chips are getting, it's probably just a matter of time.

Re: Apple walks Ars through the iPad Pro’s A12X system on a chip

#56

Post by iagooar » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:17 PM UTC

This is nuts. The iPad Pro is so massively ahead of the game, it's even hard to believe. It is faster than the MBP 2017 and ALMOST as fast as the MBP 2018. We're talking a device that is 5.9mm thick and is battery-powered!

Now here's my prediction: Apple does not really want to build an ARM-powered MBP. Instead, they will eventually allow iPads to double boot into iOS and/or MacOS.

Call me crazy, but this would be huge. Of course, Apple would still build traditional laptops, maybe even with ARM processors in them, but only as a byproduct of their iPhone / iPad product line.

Re: Apple walks Ars through the iPad Pro’s A12X system on a chip

#57

Post by dieterrams » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:17 PM UTC

camillomiller wrote: post #37

Svexav wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it have to be a laptop? What not an iPhone with a desktop mode you can pair with a monitor, keyboard, and trackpad? I’d love the ability to carry all my software and data around in a phone without lugging around a laptop or having to buy a desktop computer. And I’d love to never concern myself with transferring or syncing data again. And why not let us connect an iPhone to an eGPU for desktop gaming?

Look up what Tim Cook thinks about convergence. That is not what an iPhone is for. Period. This gimmick is just a pipedream of us nerds. It won't have the slightest chance in the market and it would be a subpar product. Both Huawei and Samsung have implemented such a solution on their flagship smartphones since at least two years. They work as advertised, but nobody could give half a shit about them.

Mobile OSes haven't been ready to accommodate desktop-level use cases. Apple is moving in that direction with iOS on iPad. Once they get there, convergence makes a lot more sense.

Re: Apple walks Ars through the iPad Pro’s A12X system on a chip

#58

Post by scarface74 » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:22 PM UTC

theluketaylor wrote: post #46

Shivetya wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

with the iPad line there is no reason to move the computer line to ARM. They would alienate a lot of the current user base who has software there are no Arm equivalents nor likely to ever be one. while I have seen many laud the iPad Pro for its power I haven't see any mention of heat or how long it can sustain a workload. Personally I do not want to see the Mac line change processors again for two reasons, like I men…

iPad, especially with the limitations artificially imposed by iOS is a content consumption device first. You can trick it into other tasks, but it's not a primary computer. If I was apple I wouldn't go all in on arm macs. I'd build arm thin and light laptops to get incredible battery life and leave the pro line as x86 for at least the next 3+ years. Even if I did decide to stop building new x86 devices I'd support ma…

From an OS standpoint. I only see two real limitations keeping iOS from being a desktop replacement for most people -- support for mice/trackpads and adding support for USB Mass storage devices to the Files app and treating mass storage devices like they treat Dropbox/iCloud/OneDrive, etc.

Re: Apple walks Ars through the iPad Pro’s A12X system on a chip

#59

Post by theluketaylor » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:25 PM UTC

tambourine_man wrote: post #49

theluketaylor wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The near total lack of the word "intel" at the keynote was certainly quite noticeable. The question is how much was that a negotiating ploy for better pricing/stock with intel and how much was positioning for arm macs. I think a bit of both. I went back to remind myself of the details of the switch from powerpc to intel. It was announced at wwdc 2005 (june) when they released a developer transition kit. The announcem…

I really like and share your vision for the Mac line, but I doubt keeping two instruction sets simultaneously is the Apple way. I hope I’m wrong though.

They have been fully supporting two instruction sets (at times three with arm32 and aarch64) since iphone came out in 2007.

I agree it would be odd for the mac line to bifurcate like that, but even in the ppc -> x86 days they supported ppc macs for quite a long time.

Apple has been getting great returns from its chip investments because they have been able to reuse the blocks in so many devices. If they do go ARM for mac there is diminishing returns as they move up the product line about how much of the silicon they can reuse. They are right at a point where power hungry multiple memory controllers, complex core interconnects and other things that will likely never make it into an iphone are going to be necessary. I suppose they can use the highest end macs as test beds to see if ideas work out, but is apple really going to have chips fabbed with 20+ big cores and complex intercore transport for products they will never sell in huge numbers?

I think for the highest end apple is better continuing to piggy back off intel's server investments and focus their chip team where it has been been absolutely dominating: sub 10W incredible performance per watt.

macOS on two instruction sets would require some extra developer time, but volunteers keep debian running on 18 arches. After the initial port there is some care and feeding, but it's manageable. The biggest issues are cross compiling, something apple is already really good at, and device drivers. Apple has that covered with the T2 chip. Move more and more of the peripheral connectivity into something like the T2 chip and then you only have to write/maintain aarch64 drivers.

The more I think about it the more it makes really good sense.

Re: Apple walks Ars through the iPad Pro’s A12X system on a chip

#60

Post by ryacko » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:27 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #58

theluketaylor wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iPad, especially with the limitations artificially imposed by iOS is a content consumption device first. You can trick it into other tasks, but it's not a primary computer. If I was apple I wouldn't go all in on arm macs. I'd build arm thin and light laptops to get incredible battery life and leave the pro line as x86 for at least the next 3+ years. Even if I did decide to stop building new x86 devices I'd support ma…

From an OS standpoint. I only see two real limitations keeping iOS from being a desktop replacement for most people -- support for mice/trackpads and adding support for USB Mass storage devices to the Files app and treating mass storage devices like they treat Dropbox/iCloud/OneDrive, etc.

And that iPads + keyboard are significantly cheaper than MacBooks.