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In Tuesday's Vote, California Opts for Year-Round Daylight Saving

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Re: In Tuesday's Vote, California Opts for Year-Round Daylight Saving

#81

Post by logfromblammo »

rtkwe wrote: post #48
npunt wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, sending kids to school in the dark is a pretty weak 'think of the children' argument. If we REALLY cared about children, we'd start school later as numerous studies show a later start is better for learning and health. See the CDC's guidelines for optimal school start times, which is 8:30am or later: https://www.cdc.gov/features/school-start-times/index.html

Then we start running into issues with the secondary/tertiary purpose of schools, daycare, which lets parents work normal 9-5 jobs more easily while having kids. If schools didn't start to 8:30-9 it'd be harder for parents to get to work.

There's no particular reason work should start so early, either, other than the perpetual punctuality pogrom promulgated by lark against owl.

Re: In Tuesday's Vote, California Opts for Year-Round Daylight Saving

#83

Post by tssva »

CalChris wrote: post #51
rrauenza wrote: post #16

This doesn't change anything right now -- it allows the California legislature to pick either PST or PDT: https://votersedge.org/en/ca/ballot/election/area/73/measure... The way it is now Federal law sets standard time zones for each area of the country. California and other western states are in the Pacific Standard time zone. Current law requires the time of each zone to move forward by one hour from early March to…

It passed 60-40. The legislature would be foolish to ignore the electorate's clear intent. CA has only a single timezone, the Pacific Timezone.

I don't think the voters intent is clear. The question was whether the legislature should be able to make the change not whether they should. If I lived in California I would have voted to provide them the option but that doesn't necessarily mean I think they should. I would expect further debate around the subject at the time legislation is introduced.

Let's accept your premise that a vote for the referendum was in all cases a vote for the change. The referendum requires 2/3rds of the representatives of the people to vote to affect the change. It can certainly be argued that since this level of support was included in the referendum and the referendum itself failed to garner this level of support then the representatives should not vote for the change.

Re: In Tuesday's Vote, California Opts for Year-Round Daylight Saving

#84

Post by rtkwe »

Taniwha wrote: post #80
rtkwe wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No that's just awful, now instead of having a defined timezone boundary we have a slow bleed between different areas and we have to look up to know what a businesses hours are if we're not close enough to follow the same customary time instead of just knowing what timezone they're in. So now we're dealing with a patchwork of 'zones of similar customary times' as areas with similar solar times move towards a similar c…

but isn't that what you have to do now, look up what timezone a business is in. The only difference with this scheme is that you don't need to convert between timezones to figure out when they're open in your timeezone I live in the southern hemisphere and 'work' online in the northern - I have to deal with the mess that is 4 different combinations of timezones every year, and calendaring systems that are unable to h…

> but isn't that what you have to do now, look up what timezone a business is in.

Not really I know some of our offices are in India UTC +5:30 and some are in Texas UTC -6 which are +11:30 and -1 respectively. With the current setup most timezones follow state boundaries in the US so I know when it is there roughly by the location. In the 'no timezone' setup (which is really just timezones without the top down mapping) I have to hope they have business hours posted somewhere convenient to look up instead of just finding their rough location.

The rest of that sounds principally a failure of tools than anything else. Today you could just set all meeting times using UTC and let the users UI take care of the mapping to local time.

But again my biggest issue with the no timezones system is we'll just be getting rid of the defined boundaries in favor of undefined boundaries because each area WILL wind up on roughly the current timezones anyways because they roughly match to solar time as is.

> Really though people should change their work hours to match their timezones - I live a long way south, we have long twilight in the summers and tiny days in the winter, when it gets dark at 4:30 because we're squashed up against a timezone boundary - I have to get up in the dark anyway, why not move our winter work hours so we get a couple of hours daylight during the winter? it would help with the Vit D issues

This is more an argument for more flexible working hours than most anything else.

Re: In Tuesday's Vote, California Opts for Year-Round Daylight Saving

#86

Post by echevil »

function_seven wrote: post #79
echevil wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s wrong with just getting up earlier, on your own terms? Or just stay on DST time zone forever?

Most people don't determine their own schedules. They have to get to work, or class by a specific time. Even independent contractors have to accommodate their clients' schedules.

Companies can decide what schedule makes better sense then. Or if needed, better rules can be established to solve those problems.

Even with day light saving, people don't work on the same schedule. Plenty of them need to get up before sun rise or work until late night no matter what the clock says.

Re: In Tuesday's Vote, California Opts for Year-Round Daylight Saving

#87

Post by _cbsz »

Taniwha wrote: post #32
philwelch wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposite. California is going to UTC-7 year-round. The East Coast varies between UTC-5 and UTC-4. California is effectively going to be in the exact same time zone as Arizona, which is in Mountain Standard Time and does not recognize DST. Honestly, we should just abolish the Pacific time zone and then abolish DST on the West Coast. Rename Mountain Standard Time to Western Standard Time.

the obvious follow on from that is to abolish timezones all together, all use UTS, and simply change the times we go to work to match local conditions

"So You Want To Abolish Time Zones" (https://qntm.org/abolish) has a good exploration of the issues with that.

Re: In Tuesday's Vote, California Opts for Year-Round Daylight Saving

#88

Post by tzs »

jandrese wrote: post #26
singingboyo wrote: post #10

From [1], which is much better and more on-point, if still short: "Opponents of the proposition argue [...] the sun wouldn’t rise until 8 a.m. during some winter months, forcing children to walk to school or buses in darkness" Maybe school shouldn't start so early then? Starting at 8:30-9 would reduce a lot of that, though not all of it. Also, as a Canadian and Vancouverite... so what? Darkness is a fact of life, get…

The local TV news used to run the same story every DST change. Like walking to school in the dark is worse than walking home from school in the dark? The only advantage of the former is that it gives the sun a chance to warm up the air a bit more so it's not quite as cold in the morning.

> Like walking to school in the dark is worse than walking home from school in the dark?

There is no place in California where the amount of daylight is so short that kids would walk home in the dark as long as school starts around 8-9, regardless of whether they use PST or PDT during the winter.

The choices are, if school start times stay so that they are before parent work start times, between walking both to and from school in the light, and walking to school in the dark and from school in the light.

If it were a choice between walking to school in the dark or walking home from school in the dark, walking to school in the dark would be worse, because the school day is shorter than the adult work day. The kids going to school overlap with the morning commute traffic. The kids coming home beat the evening commute traffice.

Re: In Tuesday's Vote, California Opts for Year-Round Daylight Saving

#89

Post by mabbo »

All of this is patently silly.

The sun will rise and set at exactly the same times it always has. All you are doing is changing your clock and deciding when to do things based on what the clock says. Farmers don't care- they get up and work based on when it's sunny, not based on what the clock on the wall says.

If you want children to be in school during daylight hours, modify the school schedules. If you want to get that extra round of golf in, go to work early and then leave work early. But don't drag the rest of society along with you so that you can pretend you're not doing anything differently!

Ten years after DST dies, everyone will remember how silly it all was and how they were always opposed to the madness.

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