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“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

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Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#121

Post by srtjstjsj »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #3

If we think that not enough people are voting, the way to solve this is NOT through get-out-the-vote efforts, voter registration drives, and tools like this to make it easier to cast a vote. These are not the bottleneck. Voting may be a duty, but it's one that carries a lot of responsibility. Getting ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes does not help our society. And I think that people realize this. So when…

"abstain" is an option on every ballot. You are conflating "being able to vote" from "voting for a choice"

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#122

Post by smbullet »

dvdhnt wrote: post #29
CWuestefeld wrote: post #3

If we think that not enough people are voting, the way to solve this is NOT through get-out-the-vote efforts, voter registration drives, and tools like this to make it easier to cast a vote. These are not the bottleneck. Voting may be a duty, but it's one that carries a lot of responsibility. Getting ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes does not help our society. And I think that people realize this. So when…

While I agree with your overall argument regarding the overflow of issues and ignorance of their particulars, I have to disagree with your view on abstinence from voting being some sort of error prevention. By that measure, there is a right and wrong, then inherently, whether you vote or not, allowing the “wrong” choice to be made is an “error”.

I don't think they're saying the wrong choice is a particular candidate. The wrong choice is mistakenly voting for someone who doesn't actually represent you because you were ignorant of the candidate's stances or history.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#123

Post by Freak_NL »

logifail wrote: post #50
bilbo0s wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and “blockchain,” which it claims allows it to secure the voting process... (I'm rubbing my temples right now) I don't even have the words for how bad this would be for a democracy or republic. I will, however, make a curt but general comment on blockchain: Anytime you see that buzzword, be on your guard.

Question: Are there (m)any people other than those involved in the manufacture and sales of voting machines , or their lobbyists, that support increased automation in the voting process? I'm absolutely, 100% happy with putting a pencil mark onto a paper ballot, which I fold and place into a box (with people watching), which is later taken (with people watching) to a counting place, emptied out on a table (with people…

Politicians, political parties, and governments (from local to national).

For some reason the lure of instant results is so great that every year there is some place in the world where electronic voting is once again strongly pushed for, even though none of the arguments against it are suitably addressed.

Is it a mindset thing? A disdain for an analogue process that they deem outmoded? A lack of understanding of the inherent problems with automatization for this particular task? All I know is that it takes a lot of effort to keep elections free from voting machines.

This is a global phenomenon by the way.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#124

Post by starbeast »

maxerickson wrote: post #85
toyg wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, ideologically linking the military and democracy is a horrifically bad idea. The two systems embody completely opposite concepts.

I would like to know more.

When you vote, you are exercising political authority, you're using force. And force, my friends, is violence. The supreme authority from which all other authorities are derived.

(Other than being an authority, presumably. Notwithstanding authorities on violence, such as Heinlein)

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#125

Post by twtw »

mtgx wrote: post #34
CWuestefeld wrote: post #3

If we think that not enough people are voting, the way to solve this is NOT through get-out-the-vote efforts, voter registration drives, and tools like this to make it easier to cast a vote. These are not the bottleneck. Voting may be a duty, but it's one that carries a lot of responsibility. Getting ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes does not help our society. And I think that people realize this. So when…

I agree this is far from the primary thing Americans should be focusing on, even forgetting about all the horrific and completely impossible to fix security issues that this will bring. What the US needs to be focusing on is changing the voting system. It's absolutely insane and undemocratic for this to keep happening almost every election: https://preview.redd.it/lyvqks420vw11.jpg?width=949&auto=web... If this isn't…

> if this isn't a broken system, I don't know what is

You are either willfully ignoring the structure of the system or need to study it more. If a billion people vote for democrats in New York and California, it has zero impact on the election of the representative from Wyoming (or any other not CA or NY). Thinking that it should fundamentally misses the point of a federation.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#126

Post by monocasa »

king07828 wrote: post #25

Could the Monero system be modified to create a voting system that maintains the secret ballot? From an engineering perspective, It seems like the currency and monetization aspects be pulled out/minimized and the untraceable transactions aspect used to record votes.

No. Vote buying and vote cohersion attacks have historically been the largest form of attack on voting systems. We need a voting system where you can be sure your vote was counted without being able to prove how you voted, even to yourself.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#127

Post by throwawaylolx »

CrlNvl wrote: post #112
throwawaylolx wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increasing participation? I won't drive out of my way and queue somewhere to vote. Sure, many people think the solution to this is shaming me for not caring enough about democracy, but it is obviously not working. If it were easy and safe to vote from my phone, I may be more inclined to vote.

So this is clearly a funding problem and a date problem. I don't know what the situation is in the US, but in France it never took me (or my parents) more than 15 minutes to cast a vote. Most of the time I'm in and out within 10 minutes. Vote always happen on Sunday.

>So this is clearly a funding problem and a date problem

Clearly not, because I wouldn't go out on Sunday to vote unless it was on my way to do something else. It's an UX problem for me and others--the effort required is not properly compensated by the benefits I'm rewarded with for my vote as far as I'm concerned.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#129

Post by specialist »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #3

If we think that not enough people are voting, the way to solve this is NOT through get-out-the-vote efforts, voter registration drives, and tools like this to make it easier to cast a vote. These are not the bottleneck. Voting may be a duty, but it's one that carries a lot of responsibility. Getting ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes does not help our society. And I think that people realize this. So when…

Follow the money.

These new products and services justify changing from a per ballot to a per voter revenue model.

Whereas before vendors charged per ballot produced, now they're charging per registered voter. Signature verification, ballot tracking, ballot casting, etc. Every single step, task is being monetized.

The transition to all vote by mail is a bonanza for vendors. Creating a $2.50 ballot packet for every voter every single election, whereas before they'd only print 10 cent ballots for expected turnout (plus 10%).

Undermining the integrity of our elections (private voting, public counting) isn't even a factor in these conversations, much less acknowledged as a regrettable side effect.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#130

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

shittyadmin wrote: post #33
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On an optically isolated (phyiscally receive only) server which only receives codes sent from the application servers and produces results. And how does it count votes per candidate then? > Yes. More secure than Diebold machines to be certain. That seems very questionable.

> And how does it count votes per candidate then? Codes can be simply be computed as HMAC(secret key, SIN + candidate) or something similar, the user and any attacker without the secret key just has a random string of bits. You do realize votes are tallied by computer currently, right? Most of these just rely on phone-based systems that often expose interfaces to news orgs and such. The sort of interface I'm talking…

> Codes can be simply be computed as HMAC(secret key, SIN + candidate) or something similar, the user and any attacker without the secret key just has a random string of bits.

In other words: The codes do identify who voted for what, which is contrary to your original claim.

The attacker not having the secret key is an inacceptable requirement for voting systems, as the election is run by those in power, but has to be able to remove them from power.

> You do realize votes are tallied by computer currently, right?

No, where I live they don't. The consitutional court of Germany ruled that voting computers are illegal to use here for reasons of election transparency and integrity.

> The sort of interface I'm talking about would actually lead to less exposure in many ways from a security standpoint.

No, not as far as the relevant attack vectors are concerned. If you think of securing an election like securing a bank, you are completely off the track.

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