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Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

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Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#141

Post by xoa »

brobdingnagians wrote: post #128
russellbeattie wrote: post #112

Boy Scouts of America is a discriminatory religious organization with a ridiculously long record of exclusionary policies [1]. They don't "welcome" gay scouts, but permit them. Atheists still aren't allowed to be scout leaders. As a parent I refused to let my son have anything to do with them. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_member...

I think it is important to distinguish between "freedom to act as you see fit" and "discrimation" per see. If you have a private organization and want to give good experiences to young men, then I think you should be able to do so. Someone else can make another organization for young women, or even one for both, each of these provides a unique experience for those who want it, and in a pluralistic society this kind o…

>distinguish between "freedom to act as you see fit" and "discrimination"

These are not linked, they are independent and orthogonal. The first is a matter of legal ability, the latter is a moral issue (that may under some circumstances also be illegal). There are many, many instances in life where you have the legal right to do something that is nonetheless despicable, and it is social consequences that moderate it (or not). russellbeattie did not say the Boy Scouts were criminals or should be banned, merely that they are discriminatory. And they are. They apparently have the freedom to be discriminatory, but private citizens may still judge them for that choice. Refusing to have one's child be involved which an organization that does that is a completely legitimate social and moral judgement as a parent. Debating and socially pushing back against evil is a critical part of society and reason free speech and association.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#143

Post by jameshart »

OskarS wrote: post #120
ramblerman wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Equality in this was just the most natural thing in the world. Op wasn't suggesting girls can't be scouts. You can still have unisex scouts. He was merely asking if we have gone so far that a club which allows boys to play with boys and girls just with girls (in one activity) was such a terrible thing. The fact that you dropped the equality hammer to counter him, kind of makes his point that it has.

I think there are a number of circumstances where separating by gender is perfectly fine. Sports is an obvious one: because of gender differences in physiques, girls and boys compete at different levels, so the separation makes perfect sense. I'm just saying that it makes absolutely zero sense to do it for scouting. Scouting is about teaching kids to be self-reliant, to be confident in nature, to work well with other…

I’m not sure it’s even obvious for sports. Doesn’t it make more sense to divide sports by physical ability regardless of gender, rather than use gender as a preposterously imprecise proxy for physical ability?

Why have one team made up of the fastest boys and another of the fastest girls, rather than one team made up of the fastest kids and another made up of the next fastest kids?

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#144

Post by JoeAltmaier »

russellbeattie wrote: post #112

Boy Scouts of America is a discriminatory religious organization with a ridiculously long record of exclusionary policies [1]. They don't "welcome" gay scouts, but permit them. Atheists still aren't allowed to be scout leaders. As a parent I refused to let my son have anything to do with them. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_member...

As is every club with any kind of charter. The DAR; the sports teams at my local high school; heck even girl's schools like Wellsley.

And the religious component is contained in "adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom"

Its about teaching young people to respect spirituality, to accept loyalty in Scouts to their own faith. I can't see harm in this. Perhaps an Atheist, dogmatically demanding that we all give up faith, could see harm?

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#145

Post by VLM »

fusiongyro wrote: post #79

I feel like I always hear about girl scout fundraising (not just the cookies) but never about girl scouting. In contrast, I hear a lot about camping and whatnot with the boy scouts, yet they never seem to be in my face raising money. What's all that girl scout money going towards? More fundraising?

Parent of both, some anecdotes and generalities follow.

Girl scouting is indoors and out of sight, Boy scouting is outdoors and in view. Therefore you will see a lot more "boy activity". They spend a similar amount of time.

For whatever weird traditional reason its assumed the boys families will pay maybe a hundred per year for boy scouting stuff, and girls do not pay or only pay a symbolic tiny amount of money. WRT family budget, Girl scouting is like a tenth the cost of Boy scouting, maybe less.

Boys do indeed sell a heck of a lot of popcorn and holiday decor like wreaths, but mostly at special events or to family members, girl scouts seem to sell most of their cookies door to door or at the grocery store very much to the general un distracted public.

Boy scouting activities, well, bluntly sound cooler and more memorable. There's no reason a girl couldn't pick up a boys merit badge book for archery and have tons of fun, but girl scout activities just are not as cool, sorry but true. "Eco Friend" just doesn't excite the imagination like shot gun shooting merit badge or welding or car maintenance. Why aren't girl scout activities as cool as boy scout activities? I honestly do not know.

Girl scout activities are very risk adverse, worst case scenario is a paper cut. Boy scout activities (at the higher ages) involve firearms and fire and safety glasses and danger in general.

Gender integration is a weird topic because boy scouts has always involved over 18 women and preteen female siblings since the old days and no one really cares; however girl scouts is absolutely fanatic about no-males-allowed in any form. Its definitely like integrating the white schools only and not the black ones, or whatever historical analogy. Girl scouts absolutely forbids males and AFAIK they are not integrating like the boy scouts at all.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#146

Post by dudul »

Angostura wrote: post #109
xc1005 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, for the girls it's fine. It is the boys who suffer long term, also from the school system that currently indoctrinates them against biology and their interests.

> indoctrinates them against biology and their interests. What does that even mean? There's about a 50:50 mix in the Scout Troop at the moment. When I went to Scouts as a kid, it was all male. From what I can tell, the activities haven't changed a bit. You just have two single-sex tents on camping trips. What is the biological imperative that's being indoctrinated here? They aren't being forced into doing needle-poin…

Note that the portion you quote was about the school system, not Scouts.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#147

Post by candu »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #144
russellbeattie wrote: post #112

Boy Scouts of America is a discriminatory religious organization with a ridiculously long record of exclusionary policies [1]. They don't "welcome" gay scouts, but permit them. Atheists still aren't allowed to be scout leaders. As a parent I refused to let my son have anything to do with them. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_member...

As is every club with any kind of charter. The DAR; the sports teams at my local high school; heck even girl's schools like Wellsley. And the religious component is contained in "adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom" Its about teaching young people to respect spirituality, to accept loyalty in Scouts to their own faith. I can't…

Meanwhile, in Canada: http://wiki.scouts.ca/en/Sexuality

...which goes to show that you can run a chartered organization, even one otherwise substantially similar in content and procedure to BSA, without being discriminatory about it.

Same goes for religious organizations: several Christian denominations allow openly gay ministers. There's nothing about spirituality that requires we discriminate against or hate each other.

IMHO, we can and should expect better of organizations than to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, especially those organizations that purport to model good behavior for youth.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#148

Post by brobdingnagians »

xoa wrote: post #141
brobdingnagians wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is important to distinguish between "freedom to act as you see fit" and "discrimation" per see. If you have a private organization and want to give good experiences to young men, then I think you should be able to do so. Someone else can make another organization for young women, or even one for both, each of these provides a unique experience for those who want it, and in a pluralistic society this kind o…

> distinguish between "freedom to act as you see fit" and "discrimination" These are not linked, they are independent and orthogonal. The first is a matter of legal ability, the latter is a moral issue (that may under some circumstances also be illegal). There are many, many instances in life where you have the legal right to do something that is nonetheless despicable, and it is social consequences that moderate it…

Err, sure, I support freedom of choice and opposing evil, but calling someone evil for deciding to send their son to a boy's only summer camp seems a bit extreme to me. Civil society also depends on people being tolerant of those they disagree with and practicing kindness and persuasion when they do disagree. Sure, there are things that we set strict laws against and things we oppose morally whether they are legal or not (e.g. murder, mass murder, oppressive surveillance), but which summer camps you decide to sponsor or go to don't seem to me to be part of that list. Maybe I'm just out of touch with society...

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#149

Post by endymi0n »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #144
russellbeattie wrote: post #112

Boy Scouts of America is a discriminatory religious organization with a ridiculously long record of exclusionary policies [1]. They don't "welcome" gay scouts, but permit them. Atheists still aren't allowed to be scout leaders. As a parent I refused to let my son have anything to do with them. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_member...

As is every club with any kind of charter. The DAR; the sports teams at my local high school; heck even girl's schools like Wellsley. And the religious component is contained in "adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom" Its about teaching young people to respect spirituality, to accept loyalty in Scouts to their own faith. I can't…

So which faith should I be loyal to please if I have none? And which universal „spiritual principles“ exist in the world that I could adhere to, except for „whatever my religious leader says“ (of which I don‘t have any)?

There‘s simply no logic in these sentences, which points back again to the boy scouts being a de facto religious organization.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#150

Post by FearNotDaniel »

OskarS wrote: post #96
BurnGpuBurn wrote: post #88

Will we see a total ban on single gender clubs in the future? And is that what we want? I don't get what is so wrong about having a few kids activities that are for just one of the genders. I think it's very healthy for kids to experience all the differences between boys and girls early on, to learn. But they should also be allowed to enjoy the company of just each other when they want to. It's an important process t…

I'm Swedish and grew up as a scout, and in Sweden scouting was made co-educational in the 1960s. I remember having my mind blown at finding out that this wasn't the case everywhere in the modern world. It just seemed like the most ridiculous thing to me, to separate scouting by gender. Saying that girls and boys couldn't be scouts together was equally absurd to me as saying that girls and boys couldn't go to school t…

Yup, same in Austria and (as far as I know) the rest of the German-speaking world. In the UK I was a cub and a scout, my sister was a brownie and a guide, both offered very different experiences. Over here everybody gets to be a Pathfinder and the kids all do cool adventurous stuff together.
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