Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA • Hacker News Board

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#111

Post by Angostura » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 11:15 AM UTC

gmk2 wrote: post #108

swish_bob wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rot. My boys both clearly gain from having girls in the Scouts and Explorers. In fact, the issues that my youngest's Scout pack are currently suffering from are pretty much all linked to the sort of crappy behaviour you get when boys are brought up the way you appear to be suggesting is a positive thing.

OP said "long term". Probably meaning "Do they still gain after their first divorce and losing half of their assets?".

You have solid connection between boys being involved in physical activities with girls when growing up and the likelihood of divorce? Thought not.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#112

Post by russellbeattie » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 11:16 AM UTC

Boy Scouts of America is a discriminatory religious organization with a ridiculously long record of exclusionary policies [1]. They don't "welcome" gay scouts, but permit them. Atheists still aren't allowed to be scout leaders. As a parent I refused to let my son have anything to do with them.

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_member...

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#113

Post by Kiro » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 11:16 AM UTC

BurnGpuBurn wrote: post #88

Will we see a total ban on single gender clubs in the future? And is that what we want? I don't get what is so wrong about having a few kids activities that are for just one of the genders. I think it's very healthy for kids to experience all the differences between boys and girls early on, to learn. But they should also be allowed to enjoy the company of just each other when they want to. It's an important process t…

Sorry, but this is the most backwards antique standpoint I've ever seen on Hacker News and I'm surprised it's the highest upvoted.

I'm glad I live in a country where opinions like yours are complete taboo as they should be.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#114

Post by lb1lf » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 11:18 AM UTC

vegardx wrote: post #100

lb1lf wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but still a male Norwegian scout's international affiliation is with the WOSM (World Organization of the Scout Movement), whereas a female scout is with the WAGGGS (World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts); there are two distinct world organizations. (Oh, and to complicate matters further, the YMCA/YWCA scouts and guides are not members of the national scout association; they have their own organizatio…

The thing is that it really only have to work on a domestic level. I don't see any good reasons for international scout organizations, unless you want to make it political.

That depends - I can see several reasons why (some) international coordination can be beneficial - areas where the alternative is a number of bilateral agreements.

Say, organizing jamborees, helping nascent scout movements get going, providing training and educational material to national movements, liaising with other international NGOs &c, &c.

That being said, I doubt the WOSM/WAGGGS affiliation is at the front of many scouts/guides' minds during day-to-day-activities.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#115

Post by watwut » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 11:25 AM UTC

gaius wrote: post #110

watwut wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on country you live in, girl version may do different activities then boy version. In some places it is more crafting and similar thing. The history of boy vs girl versions are different. Boy version evolved from "boys need activities/guidance and to be better prepared for next war with activities inspired by special unit" and packed with proper boy activities, while girl version started off with proper gir…

Both need to get back to their roots. Scouts locate the enemy and report back. Guides find routes through hostile terrain. Neither has to be a specific sex to complete their mission.

The origin of girl guides is not in guiding through hostile terrain despite what the name suggests. It is an trying to create an organization for girls inspires by boy scouts, but focusing more on proper feminine activities. You don't need to be girl to enjoy crafts and plenty boys are handy, but these activities were considered feminine and still largely are.

Boy scouts origin is in veteran thinking boys are growing too meek to be good future soldiers and also lack adult guidance messing around aimlessly not getting themselves ready. They were trying to give them something fun and good to spend time with.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#116

Post by krapp » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 11:28 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #106

krapp wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only confusing because many people want to conflate the differences between genders and downplay the similarities, for political and religious reasons. If one accepts that, yes, men and women are different but those differences don't validate all biases which delineate by gender, then the issue becomes more clear, that we can and do have both, because society, culture and gender are complex.

Then again, many people exaggerate differences, routinaly framing small difference in preferences (say 5%) rates as "boy thing" "girl thing" as if all boys were x and all girls opposite.

That's true, especially in marketing. Boys and girls more or less have separate toy sections, and many "boy" products have "girl" alternates which are just the exact same product, just pink. Because of course, girls can't simply like tools, they have to like the pink tools that are just for them.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#117

Post by rv-de » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 11:38 AM UTC

BurnGpuBurn wrote: post #88

Will we see a total ban on single gender clubs in the future? And is that what we want? I don't get what is so wrong about having a few kids activities that are for just one of the genders. I think it's very healthy for kids to experience all the differences between boys and girls early on, to learn. But they should also be allowed to enjoy the company of just each other when they want to. It's an important process t…

> Are we all becoming so politically correct that we effectively stop teaching our children the values of masculinity and femininity?

There is no value in masculinity and femininity ... those are labels for a complex interaction of personality traits which a given person shows or doesn't. There is no reason to teach those concepts. They are simply present in a human being. Most people are combinations of masculine and feminine traits - it is a spectrum and not a binary concept.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#118

Post by lou1306 » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 11:39 AM UTC

OskarS wrote: post #96

BurnGpuBurn wrote: post #88

Will we see a total ban on single gender clubs in the future? And is that what we want? I don't get what is so wrong about having a few kids activities that are for just one of the genders. I think it's very healthy for kids to experience all the differences between boys and girls early on, to learn. But they should also be allowed to enjoy the company of just each other when they want to. It's an important process t…

I'm Swedish and grew up as a scout, and in Sweden scouting was made co-educational in the 1960s. I remember having my mind blown at finding out that this wasn't the case everywhere in the modern world. It just seemed like the most ridiculous thing to me, to separate scouting by gender. Saying that girls and boys couldn't be scouts together was equally absurd to me as saying that girls and boys couldn't go to school t…

In Italy (and other countries) we have both co-ed and inter-ed associations. "Inter-ed" meaning that there is a single association with separate troops for boys and girls, but chiefs can plan activities together as they deem fit. Would this approach be considered "ridiculous", "absurd", or "shameful"?

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#119

Post by ryanmercer » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 11:50 AM UTC

BurnGpuBurn wrote: post #88

Will we see a total ban on single gender clubs in the future? And is that what we want? I don't get what is so wrong about having a few kids activities that are for just one of the genders. I think it's very healthy for kids to experience all the differences between boys and girls early on, to learn. But they should also be allowed to enjoy the company of just each other when they want to. It's an important process t…

I agree. One of my best friends was female, I mean we rode bikes and stuff every single day after school and spent most summer days joined at the hip, but going to a scout event was an entirely different thing.

And here's an issue I see. All of the scout camps I went to as a kid, yeah they didn't have two sets of showers or toilets...

So what, what are you going to do? March all the girls in and have them use the bathroom, shower etc. March them out, march the boys in and repeat? Oh, and you're going to have to go through them with a fine tooth comb between groups becuase we live in a smartphone world and I'll bet you all the money in my wallet boys are going to try and hide their phones to get video of girls and I imagine to a lesser extent it will happen in reverse too.

Hell, people still occasionally freak out about men being largely alone with young boys in group showers/open bathrooms... uh... you think there isn't going to be some disaster where Shady McGrady gets up in the middle of the night, slips off to the shower and sets up some sort of recording to get video young girls and the mothers/female staff? Because, I hate to burst bubbles but, scout camps aren't going to have funds to build brand new facilities to have gender-segregated facilities... I mean, most of those facilities weren't in the best condition when I was in scouts because they're operating on pretty thin budgets often paying camp staff barely better than minimum wage.

It's ok to have same-gender friends, it's ok to have same-gender activities. I hate that by taking this stance it's a guarantee that I'll get called a chauvinist, or sexist, or a pig. We have this same issue in Freemasonry, 'mainstream' Masonry is a MEN'S fraternity and with regularity, there's the occasional men and women that want it opened up to women. No. I'm surrounded by women all day at work, I come home to my retired mother that lives with me, I want some guy time. Kids need this too.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#120

Post by OskarS » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 11:52 AM UTC

ramblerman wrote: post #107

OskarS wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Swedish and grew up as a scout, and in Sweden scouting was made co-educational in the 1960s. I remember having my mind blown at finding out that this wasn't the case everywhere in the modern world. It just seemed like the most ridiculous thing to me, to separate scouting by gender. Saying that girls and boys couldn't be scouts together was equally absurd to me as saying that girls and boys couldn't go to school t…

> Equality in this was just the most natural thing in the world. Op wasn't suggesting girls can't be scouts. You can still have unisex scouts. He was merely asking if we have gone so far that a club which allows boys to play with boys and girls just with girls (in one activity) was such a terrible thing. The fact that you dropped the equality hammer to counter him, kind of makes his point that it has.

I think there are a number of circumstances where separating by gender is perfectly fine. Sports is an obvious one: because of gender differences in physiques, girls and boys compete at different levels, so the separation makes perfect sense.

I'm just saying that it makes absolutely zero sense to do it for scouting. Scouting is about teaching kids to be self-reliant, to be confident in nature, to work well with others, and to help with their physical and mental development. There's absolutely no reason to split this up by gender except antiquated and sexist beliefs about women. It makes just about as much sense as having different scouting organizations for people with blue eyes and brown eyes.