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What can I do about climate change?

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Re: What can I do about climate change?

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I mentioned in another sibling comment here -- that's not my problem. I pay my bills and the rest is for them to figure out. I work, I buy my tech fairly, I don't see what else I could do. I am not a law regulator, I am not a technician, I am not an environmentalist. I buy tech because it helps me save time and effort in my busy day. It's the corps and the governments responsibility to make sure the tech is eco-fr…

> It's the corps and the governments responsibility to make sure * that my car doesn't do 70mph in 20mph school zones * that my gun doesn't go off when I'm pointing it at someone innocent etc. > I buy my tech fairly, I don't see what else I could do. Have some personal responsibility and seek out eco-friendly tech to buy.

> that my car doesn't do 70mph in 20mph school zones * that my gun doesn't go off when I'm pointing it at someone innocent etc.*

Why such a huge strawman?

> Have some personal responsibility and seek out eco-friendly tech to buy.

I do have personal responsibility. I work, I don't dodge taxes, I buy stuff with my own money. I try and research but most of what we hit on the internet are PR pieces. But I won't research for 1 month something that I might need tomorrow.

Re: What can I do about climate change?

#232
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TV pickup problem, while valid, unjustly shifts the blame. The regular citizens have put the work to buy the TV device, and continue to put the work daily so they can pay the power and cable bills. What else would you have them do? They work hard and maybe the TV is their way to unwind. Why, again, is the citizens' fault for putting the work needed to buy their entertainment device and then making them feel guilt…

> I pay electrical bills... they sort out the details Then why are you even commenting in a thread about what can you do about climate change? Let someone else figure it all out and send you a bill!

We all already do that, don't you think?

I am talking about most eco tech articles that I've seen -- they are a blatant PR propaganda and rarely informative.

Re: What can I do about climate change?

#233
post #188

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The main argument against them was along the veins of that it draws big amounts of wattage in an initial burst and that we must use "slower" and thus allegedly more sustainable tech. Which is ridiculuous because every electrician will tell you that your home-grade fuses and the switchboard of your house/block handle such loads quite well without much additional strain on... anything, really. I quickly wrote her off a…

It is strain on the grid they are worried about I think.

I know what are they worried about. But us the citizens keep our end of the bargain: we pay the bills. I am not limiting my usage of a very convenient tech like an electric kettle because they want us to pay AND to think about not straining the tech they have with the money we paid.

I mean seriously, how far will the guilt-tripping of citizens go? When will it stop?

Re: What can I do about climate change?

#234
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think there's anyone promoting individual action who'd be against collective action? Or could a small individual action be a gateway to participating in collective action?

There are many people who seem to enjoy the aesthetics of consumerist-oriented environmental action but are horrified by the idea of mass protest, civil disobedience, worker's strikes, etc.

Sure, you're not going to get them to do any of those things. You would still need to get them to vote in line with these principles. The question is also: how do you convince those who are prepared to take action to do so?

Re: What can I do about climate change?

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is also important to get an education on how we have ended up in a society where these meat products are considered normal. I was 'born vegetarian' and I struggled to eat meat. I tried my hardest and genuinely believed that if I did not eat meat like everyone else then I would end up physically weak, without a fully developed brain etc. I endured eating burgers in the belief that they were really good for…

This is great... Thanks. Do you know of any research or literature that goes deeper into this?

Glad you like it. There is no book on the subject, but all the best history is 'oral tradition', particularly regarding the food chain, right?

This is my own pet thesis, there is fact rather than myth that backs up the story. You can truly enjoy the fact checking though. For instance have a look at pastoral scenes painted by the grand masters of old. Cows are smaller, a lot smaller, and these are not errors in painting to scale. Children can reach out to cows without them the cow towering above. The history is right there in paintings that you probably had no interest in the first time you saw them and decided not to major in 'Art History'.

Same with the Chicken Tax related part of this 'thesis', along the way you can learn how the VW camper van became a thing - it was a tax workaround to put seats in the van so it wouldn't be a 'van'.

We also imagine Darwin started from a blank canvas, really that was not the case at all. Not trying to dismiss his work, but he was standing on the shoulders of giants too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bakewell_(agriculturali...

He was the chap who turned cows from beasts of burden to beef. His work was what Darwin wrote about to 'prove there is a god'. Yeah.

Also check out the humble turnip. The turnip made the British Agricultural Revolution possible, without the turnip there would not have been the British Empire as we know it. The turnip was a crop that could be fed to livestock, planted in the 'fallow' year it nitrogen fixed the soil making it good to go for other crops. Nowadays the turnip is just a Blackadder joke.

The Moldboard Plough was another part of the puzzle, the Chinese had this first, the Dutch copied it and they got it hooked up to horses. I don't have a handy reference for that, particularly how the harness worked. There is plenty to study though, Jethro Tull being an interesting chap for the 'seed drill' that ended this random scattering nonsense.

Dutch Golden Age paintings have the clues to the story in them, I have my 18 month old niece to help me research this, although she can't talk she is good at pointing at cows, in art and in fields. She goes 'Maggie Simpson' on me at times, I would not have spotted unusually small cows in paintings without her help and would not have gone down the rabbit hole of working out the why questions without her promptings.

So much of the politics of food is based on belief and opinion. Various diets are nonsense. I don't want another religion, I just want to understand. History gives the answers. And art history that has bored me to date comes to life when I am looking at paintings for things like how people ate, how big various animals are and what 'tech' was used on the farm. There is no longer a need to aesthetically decide if a painting is pretty or not, I find so much more in what I see when it is for this type of personal research.

Forgot to mention sheep - in the part of the West Country (UK) that I know the lucky mix of fortune that made the area prosperous included Fullers Earth, used to get wool nice and clean from grease etc. There were export restrictions on Fuller's Earth, so precious it was! The final product - cloth - ended up in those red uniforms that the British Army conquered the world with. The Cotswolds also had a lot of rain and very steep hills. So waterwheels and canals were part of the story. Plus the wonders of capitalism, with cottage industry making way for bigger mills and eventual decline...

I owe a great deal of thanks to some old people who are not here any more for taking the time to show me the relevant industrial archaeology. A retired gentleman who I used to deliver newspapers to as a teenager took the time to take me to local places so I could draw things for school history projects. In today's 'stranger danger' world where newspapers aren't delivered by 14 year old kids this type of thing would not be possible.

Only recently have I wondered, 'okay I know a bit about the wool, what about the sheep?' and wondered what amount of lamb/mutton was on the menu then. Nobody has studied that bit, so again I am in my favourite realm of history, where it becomes fascinating. It is so nice to escape the 'dull' world of people lecturing others to be vegan or not, to explore this realm of 'oral history'. I am glad someone out there likes it too.

Re: What can I do about climate change?

#236
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, you live in a place without weekends, women's voting rights or laws against child labour?

I live in Eastern Europe, where drastic social changes only happen if the politicians see a crowd with pitchworks and torches at the town hall. Literally. People around here are just realists because no significant changes ever comes before people get that fed up. Civil discourse and constructive discussion has so far netted us nothing but dossiers and people landing on dissident lists. This happens to this day. No n…

> pitchforks at the town hall

Hey, do you live in Prague https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestrations_of_Prague ? Don't let the czech mentality get to you, people there complain just for fun.

Re: What can I do about climate change?

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe me, I would love to buy my kitchen stove, washing machine, refrigerator, aspirator, air conditioner and vacuum cleaner from a local manufacturer. I gave up my car more than a decade ago. I haven't owned a vacuum cleaner in years. I live in a cheap rental with a wood floor. We strictly enforce taking shoes off just inside the front door to prevent dirt from being tracked in so we don't have to clean as much. I…

More power to you. I do part of these things already but (1) it's a gradual process, (2) I have a ton of other issues to deal with first so I cannot religiously purse lesser CO2 footprint (like personal health; it takes precedence over other venues), and (3) I am asked to trust other organizations -- f.ex. that throwing away stuff in certain trash cans helps the planet (which I don't mind at all; surely it makes some…

Oh, no problem. It's a favorite topic.

I'm on this path because of health issues, not specifically looking to shrink my footprint. That's more like a dude effect.

Most rentals in the US have wall to wall carpeting, which I loathe. I'm so thrilled to be in a rental with a wood floor. That's tough to find in America, especially on a tight budget.

When I gave up having a vacuum cleaner, we were in an apartment with wall to wall carpeting. It's horrifying stuff and we felt better with giving up the vacuum cleaner and finding other methods to try to keep the place tolerably clean. I've since seen articles that indicate studies show that vacuuming actually spreads germs. It may pick up visible dirt, but it makes germ control worse. That's a bigger issue for us than visible dirt. We concluded vacuuming was a health hazard years before I saw articles about such studies.

So, what I'm saying is my current situation is basically a dream come true after years and years of wanting something like this. It took a long time and a lot of little choices along the way and a lot of awkward stages where we decided "We are simply not doing X anymore. Period. Because X just doesn't work." before we had any idea what we would do instead. And then we would scramble and come up with imperfect and frustrating alternatives and muddle through.

But it did get gradually better.

Tossing that out there in hopes that it helps you with the path forward. The road ahead may not look like a road at all. You may not see it until you look back on it.

Best.

Re: What can I do about climate change?

#238
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Eastern Europe, where drastic social changes only happen if the politicians see a crowd with pitchworks and torches at the town hall. Literally. People around here are just realists because no significant changes ever comes before people get that fed up. Civil discourse and constructive discussion has so far netted us nothing but dossiers and people landing on dissident lists. This happens to this day. No n…

> pitchforks at the town hall Hey, do you live in Prague https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestrations_of_Prague ? Don't let the czech mentality get to you, people there complain just for fun.

Bulgaria. :)

It's easy to write us off Eastern Europeans as "complaining just for fun" though. Many do but when you get to the bottom of it, real change happens extremely rare. And that's a valid argument and a historical background to have.

But regular-complainers and realistic-no-BS-folk often get conflated by external observers -- to my despair.

Re: What can I do about climate change?

#239
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many people who seem to enjoy the aesthetics of consumerist-oriented environmental action but are horrified by the idea of mass protest, civil disobedience, worker's strikes, etc.

Sure, you're not going to get them to do any of those things. You would still need to get them to vote in line with these principles. The question is also: how do you convince those who are prepared to take action to do so?

Many are prepared to take action and actively do so. They are subsequently vilified by politicians and media for not falling in line and voting or taking other acceptable (and ineffective) actions.

Strikes and large protests are not encouraged in mainstream discourse and the principles they represent are not available as an option to vote for.

Re: What can I do about climate change?

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Furthermore "climate science" is not actually following the scientific principles as it's not falsifiable for obvious reasons. >"Climate science" is metascience in the sense that it builds on and interprets data which has its own set of issues besides the issues with data modeling. Yes, findings about climate are not reproducible in the straight and narrow sense of the scientific method, but there are methods to re…

"Yes, findings about climate are not reproducible in the straight and narrow sense of the scientific method" Full stop. And this is the most important misconception which most people don't understand. They actually think the science is settled and that it's provable through the scientific process. It's not not by any stretch. The problem is that this discussion, even the one we are having right now is mostly a politi…

> So there are all sorts of reasons not to just take anything by these organisations even if you agree that there is a problem and that the climate is changing. In other words you don't have to become a climate catastrophist just because you agree that climate is always going to be challenge to humans.

Nevertheless, these climate claims are consistent with what I know to be true: that ecologies collapse when there is a great change in temperature (even when geology is similar), that carbon is a greenhouse gas, that we are emitting it at an unprecedented scale, and that carbon in the biosphere is conserved. I haven't seen a compelling model that assumes otherwise that does not predict the existence of a system that we haven't yet observed. One has to make a risk-cost decision either way on imperfect information, and I think the more consistent and conservative theory and its associated greater costs is the more optimal decision.

> Old theories don't still hold

> They are still useful in limated scope

On the other hand, it is usually more likely that phenomena predicted after a paradigm shift have more limited application, due to the principle that more inaccessible phenomena are more difficult to exploit. Even with the paradigm shift, it only gives us more accurate predictions about phenomena that we already have, agreeing with it to a large degree in most human-experience aspects. Consider that quantum mechanics see less application than newtonian mechanics. The old theory still holds in most situations indeed, whereas quantum theory requires an intractable amount of computation to obtain predictions. Quantum chemistry see less application than traditional models of chemistry. Similarly, any new findings on climate change solutions are very likely to be tougher to exploit than current solutions. So I do not think it is rational to wait for a technological hail mary.

> you have to live by that framing then it all falls apart. You have hundreds of millions of people if not billions who would do anything to become just a fraction as rich as you and me and do not care one ounce about their climate footprint and what you consider immoral

I think I have given sufficient examples that disagree with what you are saying. With respect to less prosperous communities, it is often the case that they have a more collectivistic mindset and community and in fact live under more taboos. Consider superstitions, rituals, and religious dietary restrictions. Also consider the case of British society a couple centuries ago, where the aspirational class lived more prudishly than the upper class or the lower class, based on a certain idealistic gentility.

> That's actually not even close to true which China is a pretty clear example of.

I don't know which aspect of the Chinese economy you are referring to. The electronics part, where there is no lack of signal from the countries it exports to, or its investment in green tech, in which case we may consider the Govt. one disproportionately strong actor in collective signalling.

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