Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing • Hacker News Board

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#81

Post by Joakal » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 5:38 AM UTC

atombender wrote: post #56

Joakal wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is a democracy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China Funny thing is, people say one party system is not a democracy. What about USA's two party system? Both of them have representatives elected by people (baring the violence). But in both, people can't realistically get a new party in government, let alone run the country. Yet new parties get elected in other parts of the world, even if they don't…

The constitution defines China as "a socialist state under the people's democratic dictatorship led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants" [1]. It may be "democratic" in the sense that elections are held, but it's not a democracy in the modern sense. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_democratic_dictatorsh...

Intersting, as per your link, the dictatorship is for the people. Seems similar to commander in chief role but without congress?

What is democracy in a modern sense?

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#82

Post by njarboe » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 6:26 AM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #40

A2017U1 wrote: post #15

If only we could get such swift global action on greenhouse emissions. Both problems are essentially the same yet the difference in action couldn't be wider.

One big difference is that you could prove the ozone layers thining and so it was easy to get political backup, plus the solution was fairly simple. The climate debate is mostly political and there is no way to prove the effects only speculate. If just people would let scientists do science and not mix in political agendas we would have been much better of and money could have been spent for things we can actually do…

If the environmentalists had concentrated their efforts into educating people about CO2 as a pollutant that causes the acidification of the oceans, I think increases in CO2 emissions could have been slowed and reversed a long time ago. The chemistry is very straight forward and the damage to the oceans very easy to show and explain.

Unfortunately, instead of trying to find replacements for the energy produced by fossil fuel(nuclear was just sitting their, ready), it seems to me the most vocal environmentalists were basically anti-technology and anti-human and hoped the the huge fear of global warming would be enough to get a huge range of policies they had been pushing of decades passed. No such luck and the other side has now politicize global warming to their benefit.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#83

Post by skrebbel » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 7:05 AM UTC

apatters wrote: post #80

profalseidol wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure even "democratic" countries has so much difficulty with corruption. Then there is the Federal Reserve.. My true definition of democracy is direct democracy. Once you start giving power to a representative then you stop being democratic. And that includes power to survive, eat, have shelter, have vacation, have time to study and pursue creative things. But unless we can instantly communicate like the Proto…

In the United States, the Founding Fathers debated the idea of direct democracy at length and rejected it. Their reasons included preserving state sovereignty/local governance, and protecting rural minorities. Here's an article by George Friedman at Stratfor which serves as an introduction to the discussion: https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_13051196 The only thing which can reliably be said about modern debate on h…

I keep being amazed how Americans treat anything said or done by the Founding Fathers (with two capital Fs even) as holy scripture.

They were just some guys drafting a law, get over it. People draft laws all the time.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#84

Post by tempestn » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 7:33 AM UTC

profalseidol wrote: post #73

Retric wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Systemic corruption makes the rule of law "difficult" to enforce. And by difficult I mean this is a feature not a bug for the huge interconnected web of power that actually runs the country. PS: The fact China is not a democracy which has some unpleasant results: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

Pretty sure even "democratic" countries has so much difficulty with corruption. Then there is the Federal Reserve.. My true definition of democracy is direct democracy. Once you start giving power to a representative then you stop being democratic. And that includes power to survive, eat, have shelter, have vacation, have time to study and pursue creative things. But unless we can instantly communicate like the Proto…

You might be interested in the idea of a delegative democracy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delegative_democracy

In theory it has the advantages of direct democracy, without requiring telepathy. Of course, that's not necessarily to say that it would work well, but it's an interesting concept at least.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#85

Post by thaumasiotes » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 8:39 AM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #38

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely the Prime Minister title wins out? Actually, that’s an interesting question: since “Dr” usually replaces “Mr” for a man, would a male president with a doctorate be “Dr President”?

Probably not. President would take precedent. See Chancellor Merkel for a good example (she has a PhD).

I was under the impression that German titles stacked up rather than overriding one another, like "Herr Professor Doktor". Is that wrong?

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#86

Post by Vinnl » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 8:58 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #49

tomerico wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the key part. What CPC case teaches us, is that if we could find a good alternative to Fossil fuels, we could likely eliminate their use.

We have a good alternative. France produces ~80% of its electricity with nuclear power.

Is it a good alternative if it is much more expensive?

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#87

Post by zaarn » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 9:04 AM UTC

xavierstein wrote: post #24

My father-in-law firmly believes that the hole in the ozone was caused by space shuttle reentry, and that's why it's patching now, and also that CFCs couldn't possibly make the hole because they are heavier than air. Does anyone have the data to refute these claims?

At the large scale of the atmosphere and in the lower layers, the relative weight of gases doesn't matter (otherwise Oxygen and Nitrogen would seperate out and there wouldn't be a mix of other gases in it either).

The makeup down here is largely controller by convection and turbulences, only farther up the relative weight starts to matter.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#88

Post by isostatic » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 9:18 AM UTC

xavierstein wrote: post #30

pm wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does he have data to back up those claims?

I guess I'm more looking for a response to "yes CFCs can destroy ozone even though they are heavier than air," and "here is a graph of the size of the ozone vs space shuttle reentries" that shows a non-correlation.

If he's into correlations point him at http://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations - Nicholas Cage films cause drownings, Cheese leads to bedsheet entanglement, and norway oil causes traffic accidents.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#89

Post by awestroke » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 9:42 AM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #40

A2017U1 wrote: post #15

If only we could get such swift global action on greenhouse emissions. Both problems are essentially the same yet the difference in action couldn't be wider.

One big difference is that you could prove the ozone layers thining and so it was easy to get political backup, plus the solution was fairly simple. The climate debate is mostly political and there is no way to prove the effects only speculate. If just people would let scientists do science and not mix in political agendas we would have been much better of and money could have been spent for things we can actually do…

No way to prove the effects? That's a controversial statement, considering the 99%+ scientific consensus that we are headed towards a global catastrophe.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#90

Post by thg » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 9:43 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #85

jedberg wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably not. President would take precedent. See Chancellor Merkel for a good example (she has a PhD).

I was under the impression that German titles stacked up rather than overriding one another, like "Herr Professor Doktor". Is that wrong?

Generally that's correct, albeit pretty much only used in writing. There are, however, political titles for which, to my knowledge, that does not apply. Minister, Chancellor and President (of the BRD) should all supersede a PhD title.