Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants • Hacker News Board

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#271

Post by moorhosj » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 2:30 AM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #229

moorhosj wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flip side of this argument is that the companies are ripping the countries off by using myriad tax loopholes, because they can. I find it interesting that the companies are often portrayed as smart for doing this, but politicians are jealous and incompetent. Almost like we worship businesses and malign government. I wonder whose interests that viewpoint supports.

I think many people here believe the correct thing for politicians to do would be focusing on making their own countries more competitive when it comes to having tech giants of their own, and they view regulations or taxes like this as being partially the result of 'sour grapes' that their own countries are less successful in this arena.

The rub is what “more competitive” actually means. I get the feeling lots of people think it means lower taxes, but limited government also hurts a company’s ability to hire educated employees if lack of funding hurts education.

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#272

Post by cyphar » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 2:52 AM UTC

freeflight wrote: post #149

divbyzer0 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that tech companies do not pay their fair share of tax. But this is an EU tariff against US companies. Will any EU company be affected?

If they are making similar use of tax evasion techniques then, yes [0]. Too many people here act like this is something specifically aimed at US companies, when in reality it's not. US companies just happen to be affected the most by it due to their dominance in this particular business sector. But this is something that has been long overdue and was bound to happen regardless of who was dominating that sector. [0] h…

It's aimed at companies incorporated in the EU. If a US company decided to incorporate a subsidiary in the EU to get tax breaks and other benefits, then it makes little sense (to me, at least) to complain about US companies being targeted. Some US companies specifically decided to structure themselves to be EU companies in name (and tax status) -- so from a practical perspective they are EU companies. You can't have it both ways.

(Not to mention this will affect companies like SAP and Spotify, which are real EU companies.)

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#273

Post by obpacheco » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 3:46 AM UTC

sofixa wrote: post #214

bluecalm wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They pay VAT for sells in your country. It doesn't matter if it's consumer or a company paying the tax, the amount is added to the price. If you want them tax then increase that. Why do you feel entitled to profits of the company that isn't based in your country? It's like thinking the company should pay 5m in tax in Ireland based on sells in France while being ok with them deducting expenses from unrelated business…

> They pay VAT for sells in your country. It doesn't matter if it's consumer or a company paying the tax, the amount is added to the price. If you want them tax then increase that. VAT is tax for consumers, not corporations. > Why do you feel entitled to profits of the company that isn't based in your country? Because those profits are made from sales in that country, and every physical company selling in that countr…

>VAT is tax for consumers, not corporations.

at the end of the day does it really matter? It's totally a tax on the corporations ability to do business. If we taxed the companies causing them to increase prices by 10%, the consumer still ends up having to pay 10% more on the products. Or if we taxed the companies at the point of sale for 10%, it's the same outcome for consumers.

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#274

Post by paulddraper » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 5:16 AM UTC

l9k wrote: post #250

SilasX wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think "monopoly" is best judged by "current market share", but by whether a) it's easy for users to switch, and b) whether having that market share is self-reinforcing in a way that prevents competitors from entering. The parent's point was that a) is not true for Google as a search engine. b) doesn't seem to be true either; while money and experience can make you provide better search results, you don't get…

So what you're saying is it's easy to compete with Google and get some market share in that space?

He's saying that (1) they have a horizontal monopoly, but not a vertical one. And (2) the monopoly is due to Google's quality. Should they do a subpar job, they would be disrupted.

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#275

Post by flosim » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 5:42 AM UTC

bsaul wrote: post #231

sofixa wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you aware that "the government" changes every ~5 years and the majority of recent French Presidents and their parliaments have been on different political spectrums? There is no "they". So what Sarkozy's government was doing was radically different than what Hollande tried to do in the first part of his mandate (he rolled back quickly when he saw it's not making anything better), and it's also different than what…

Are you aware that every single high ranking french administration officer and policy maker for the last 50 years came from the same school ( including bruno lemaire), and that this school recruits almost nobody coming from the private sector ( although this is starting to change, but only very recently). That’s the « they ». Everybody in the fifth republic believes that the state should regulate the economy, while h…

1 - You seem to imply that for one to be a good "bureaucrat", one needs to have roots in the private sector. Can I just say that this is far from obvious for everybody? If anything, I'd be wary of those people as they pose a far greater risk of conflict of interests. I don't want to be run by lobbies, thank you. The recent story of M. Kohler, Macron's closest ally, makes me very wary. I won't say that all private bankers, CEOs and whatnot are the devil, because I am not a popullist know-it-all, but I do not trust them more just because they've worked in the private sector, as if it were some kind of holy virtue.

2 - I know a capitalist system that notoriously fails to redistribute wealth even though it's the richest economy in the world. Its ruling class seems to be keen on implementing those ultraliberal taxation ideas of yours. Sub-par healthcare and expensive education is the result. Then again, that is not a system that I think is worth emulating.

3 - As much as I appreciate politicians in general, I wouldn't be so immodest as to pretend that they're a bunch of stupid bureaucrats, meaning by that that I know how things work better than they do.

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#276

Post by flosim » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 5:46 AM UTC

BalinKing wrote: post #237

ambicapter wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you're saying is, we shouldn't use laws to fix things?

I don't think that's as unreasonable as you make it sound. Laws should not be the knee-jerk reaction to every problem; there are many who think they should be effectively be a last-resort measure (when there truly is no other alternative). Obviously, there is large political disagreement on this issue (viz: conservatives vs. liberals, to use American jargon).

I wouldn't qualify this as a knee-jerk reaction. I'm not saying it's not misguided in its current form. What I mean is that tax evasion in the EU is a well-known problem, and a fix is looooong overdue.

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#277

Post by flosim » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 5:57 AM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #147

Whether this policy is good or bad will depend on the details. But generally, in Europe, this kind of priposal is a populism magnet and a dancefloor for cheap politics. "Standing up to multinational corporations and making them pay their fair share (ra! ra!)" is exactly the type of rhetoric our most generic politicians love. An American equivalent might be some "government out of your hair" initiative to reduce profe…

Except we're not talking about a far country in a galaxy far, far away, but a close ally that actively benefits from the advantages of being a close ally, while pulling bad tax tricks that are detrimental to the countries that allow it to thrive.

It's not about fixing the Bahamas here.

I do agree with your first sentence though, whether this is good or bad depends on the particulars.

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#278

Post by SilasX » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 6:04 AM UTC

paulddraper wrote: post #274

l9k wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you're saying is it's easy to compete with Google and get some market share in that space?

He's saying that (1) they have a horizontal monopoly, but not a vertical one. And (2) the monopoly is due to Google's quality. Should they do a subpar job, they would be disrupted.

You are a lot more economical with words than me :-)

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#279

Post by flosim » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 6:05 AM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #229

moorhosj wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flip side of this argument is that the companies are ripping the countries off by using myriad tax loopholes, because they can. I find it interesting that the companies are often portrayed as smart for doing this, but politicians are jealous and incompetent. Almost like we worship businesses and malign government. I wonder whose interests that viewpoint supports.

I think many people here believe the correct thing for politicians to do would be focusing on making their own countries more competitive when it comes to having tech giants of their own, and they view regulations or taxes like this as being partially the result of 'sour grapes' that their own countries are less successful in this arena.

More competitive, OK. Who doesn't want their country to be more competitive anyway, whatever that means? Certainly no one in their right mind would argue to make it more diverse, more educated while we're at it?

How about you share how you think this could work? While I agree for more competitiveness for my country, history has shown me repeatedly that low taxes isn't actually working out that great.

Equating low taxes with increased competitiveness is to me dishonest as a generality. I'm certainly not opposed to admitting that it can work in some cases, but I can't agree to this as a general rule.

Re: Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants

#280

Post by flosim » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 6:07 AM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #199

moorhosj wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flip side of this argument is that the companies are ripping the countries off by using myriad tax loopholes, because they can. I find it interesting that the companies are often portrayed as smart for doing this, but politicians are jealous and incompetent. Almost like we worship businesses and malign government. I wonder whose interests that viewpoint supports.

>I find it interesting that the companies are often portrayed as smart for doing this, but politicians are jealous and incompetent. Almost like we worship businesses and malign government. I wonder whose interests that viewpoint supports. Megacorps have been systematically screwing people for several hundred years. By comparison, most of the book of Exodus is a story about government systematically screwing people. P…

The anecdote is funny, but what does it have to do with anything?

One could argue that the statist systems in Scandinavia work quite okay... don't you agree?